John Davis

Banned
In our timeline, the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors engaged in miscegenation with both the indigenous population and Africa slaves which resulted in the racially-mixed population in Latin America today.

But let’s say that in an alternate timeline:

1). The conquistadors bring their own women to the Americas.

2). The Catholic Church strictly prohibit miscegenation between whites and non-whites.

3). More massacres and smallpox epidemics happen.

4). Spanish and Portuguese authorities allow Catholics from Europe to immigrate to their colonies. Aside from more Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian families immigrating, many Dutch, German, and English Catholics immigrate to the New World as a result of the anti-Catholic sentiment arising due to the Protestant reformation.
 
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But let’s say that in an alternate timeline:

But why would they want to do any of that in the first place? Spanish and Portuguese colonization was already brutal enough as it was, how much more sadistic would they need to be to kill even more people than in OTL.
 

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The Bartolomé de Las Casas peasant colonization plan would have led to a majority "Criollo" Latin America. Though there would also vassal native states interspersed between the Spanish majority areas.
 
2). The Catholic Church strictly prohibit miscegenation between whites and non-whites.

On what grounds? Bear in mind that Catholic literally means Universal, and, whilst it may not be impossible for a Universal Church to become obsessed with the idea of racial purity, it is pretty counter-intuitive.
 
Latin America is already 35-40% European descent. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, etc all have very high percentages. Venezuela and Colombia have fair percentages 30-42%. Mexico has upwards of 10-15% which is a very large populace for its 100+ million inhabitants. Dominican Republic is at the low end with 16% and other nations such as Nicaragua, Honduras, Peru and Bolivia are below 10%.

I mean, Brazil is the third largest nation on earth in terms of 'white' or European descent, only behind the US and Russia. So, what more do you want?

You could have Haiti with a higher percentage if you consider it Latin America. I have no idea on other nations. Prior to the revolt in Haiti, European was perhaps 7% of the population in the colony. That could add a fair amount to Latin America.
 
Latin America is already 35-40% European descent. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Cuba, Costa Rica, Chile, etc all have very high percentages. Venezuela and Colombia have fair percentages 30-42%. Mexico has upwards of 10-15% which is a very large populace for its 100+ million inhabitants. Dominican Republic is at the low end with 16% and other nations such as Nicaragua, Honduras, Peru and Bolivia are below 10%.

I mean, Brazil is the third largest nation on earth in terms of 'white' or European descent, only behind the US and Russia. So, what more do you want?
European descent doesn't cut it here. Probably 'one drop' policy applies, seeing as the OP specifies

In our timeline, the Spanish and Portuguese conquistadors engaged in miscegenation with both the indigenous population and Africa slaves which resulted in the racially-mixed population in Latin America today.


1). The conquistadors bring their own women to the Americas.

2). The Catholic Church strictly prohibit miscegenation between whites and non-whites.

3). More massacres and smallpox epidemics happen.

4). Spanish and Portuguese authorities allow Catholics from Europe to immigrate to their colonies. Aside from more Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian families immigrating, many Dutch, German, and English Catholics immigrate to the New World as a result of the anti-Catholic sentiment arising due to the Protestant reformation.

So purely European.

Not sure what this is asking for, aside from imagining the virtual depopulation of the majority of South America. What, like the future developments of such an ATL? The plausibility of it?

The latter would be pretty unlikely, I think. The Iberians wanted to Christianize the new lands (as well as exploit it as much as possible) and killing off the whole native population goes against both goals (if you kill them, you can't convert them or use them as forced manual labor). Bringing in African slaves makes the situation even less likely to happen, as you can see in the American South's pre-Civil War demographics. No integration and pure slaughter means no help for the explorers, plus all the failed rebellions from the Inca would have way more support, so Spanish control starts to become untenable. No native allies from the start means the Spanish conquests get pushed back by a loooong time, if they do happen.

Industrial level genocide is a bit too early, I would say. I guess the smallpox could be worse but not actively, I'm not aware of the Spanish trying germ warfare at the time. It was mostly incidental.

As for future developments, all of South America is much less populated for centuries. It gets less focus, I should expect, because there's no way to extract as many resources as in OTL (like the silver from Potosi) without the forced labour from non-European folks. Spain isn't quite as flush with money, that sort.

Overall, you'd have to change quite a few peoples' mindsets and goals. But yeah, not practical, not ethical, and changes quite a bit.
 
@BellaGerant No, I was referring to actually white European descent. Not referring to Mestizo, Pardo or Mulatto. This 40% white in Latin America is in reference to actual white populace as in wholly European descent or only minor native descent in reference to castizo.
 
If you want it to be "purely European" you need it to be not Spanish and Portuguese in the first place.

Remember how the Arabs stayed for 700 years in the Peninsula? Jews and Muslims of Semitc Origin didn't simply disappear, there was a societal and legal recognition of New Christians from the New World throughout most of Latin America's colonial history.
 
If you want it to be "purely European" you need it to be not Spanish and Portuguese in the first place.

Remember how the Arabs stayed for 700 years in the Peninsula? Jews and Muslims of Semitc Origin didn't simply disappear, there was a societal and legal recognition of New Christians from the New World throughout most of Latin America's colonial history.

Are you implying that Spaniards and Portuguese are non European or partly European? I have not met a single Arab in the Arab world who considered a Spaniard to be anything but a European and from among the same house as the Germans, French, etc... Further all Islamic chroniclers refer to the Iberian person as 'half baked', thus white. The Arab chroniclers further, never mention Iberians as dark skin, yet they refer to the Iraqi and other Arabs as having a dark complexion. However, al-Jahiz stated that the Iberian is the one with skin as the Franks.

Also, it is very likely that the Arab populace was very small in Iberia. Especially following the collapse of the Umayyad realm and the rise of the Abbasid, it is unlikely there was never a massive Arab populace to actually denote a completely mixed society in Iberia. If you look at for instance hair and eye color in Iberia, it is simply far, far too light in percentage to be considered close to the Arab world in that regard.
 
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Here's a nice introduction to topic.

It's quite naïve to think that Iberia was politically and culturally connected to North Africa for 700 years and there would be no trace of North African/Semitc blood in the area.

Also, the Conversos/New Christians suffered from institutional prejudice until the end of the 18th century. Thus, even if we do not take into consideration modern genetics, Iberian people from Muslim and Jewish origin (presumably with a higher degree of Semitic blood) were sistematically treated as inferior by the Old Christians. See the Estatues of Cleanliness of Blood.

EDIT: By the way, Latin America has a huge Arab minority, mostly from Lebanon and Syria. They're seem as white today.
 
Also, it is very likely that the Arab populace was very small in Iberia. Especially following the collapse of the Umayyad realm and the rise of the Abbasid, it is unlikely there was never a massive Arab populace to actually denote a completely mixed society in Iberia. If you look at for instance hair and eye color in Iberia, it is simply far, far too light in percentage to be considered close to the Arab world in that regard.

Here's an image from the aforementioned article on wikipedia. It probaly make things more visible:

Haplotype-based_genetic_sharing_between_Europe_and_Africa.png
 
Here's a nice introduction to topic.

It's quite naïve to think that Iberia was politically and culturally connected to North Africa for 700 years and there would be no trace of North African/Semitc blood in the area.

Also, the Conversos or New Christians suffered from institutional prejudice until the 18th century. Thus, even if we do not take into consideration modern genetics, Iberian people from Muslim and Jewish origin (presumably with a higher degree of Semitc blood) were sistematically treated as inferior by the Old Christians. See the Estatues of Cleanliness of Blood.

That page claimed that Iberia on average has 4% shared ancestry with North Africa. This is what you claim is not European or white? Further, North Africa is quite varied ethnically as is the Arab world. Especially the largest contingent of Iberian Muslims during the Umayyad period where from the lightest shades of skin tone in the Arab world, in the Levantine region.

Regardless the 700 years number you give is misleading. The various Muslim states ruled various sections of Iberia over 700 years, and never completely controlled it. They also, ruled over a large populace of converted Iberians, those who converted to Islam. Then you have periods in which the Muslim states rapidly recede and weaken. Then you have periods where they conquer more. However, never did this land of Iberia have close connection to the rest of the Arab world by virtue of its heresy in rejecting the legitimate khilafah.

Al-Andalus is simply it's own region and is not truly tied to the actual Islamic world that is characterized by rule by the Abbasid hegemony. The chroniclers of the past recognized this and spoke of the Iberians in the Middle Ages as 'white' yet Muslim.
 
That page claimed that Iberia on average has 4% shared ancestry with North Africa.

Did you even read it?

Estimates of shared ancestry averaged from 4% in some places to 10-12% in the general population,

Estimates of Y-Chromosome ancestry vary, with a 2008 study published in the American Journal of Human Genetics using 1140 samples from throughout the Iberian peninsula, giving a proportion of 10.6% North African ancestry.[11][29][30] A similar 2009 study of Y-chromosome with 659 samples from Portugal, 680 from Northern Spain, 37 samples from Andalusia, 915 samples from mainland Italy, and 93 samples from Sicily found significally higher levels of North African male ancestry in Spain, Sicily and Portugal (7.7%, 7.1% and 7.5% respectively) than in Italy (1.7%).[26]

A similar 2014 study by Lazaridis et al. found an average African admixture of 14.8% (12.6% Mozabite and 2.2% Mbuti/Yoruba) in the Y-DNA markers of the Spanish population, suggesting that gene flow from Sub-Saharan and North African populations has occurred in the Spanish sample.[33]
 
Did you even read it?

Not throughly, lightly. I simply find the idea that you are saying Iberians do not fit European settlement of the New World, odd. It is essentially claiming that Iberians are a mixed people who are partially Arab-Jewish and thus not fitting the term European or white. Which no Arab chronicler mentions, Iberians are universally mentioned by Arabs as half baked or white.
 
Not throughly, lightly. I simply find the idea that you are saying Iberians do not fit European settlement of the New World, odd. It is essentially claiming that Iberians are a mixed people who are partially Arab-Jewish and thus not fitting the term European or white.

That's not what I said. Probably I wasn't clear enough.

There was already institutionalized prejudice against people of Muslim and Jewish background (presumably with a higher degree of North African admixture - but obviously we can't know that for sure) and these people of New Christian extraction participated importantly in the settlement of the New World. For their contemporaries, they weren't "fully white" or "fully christian" as both notions were somewhat interconnected in the mentality of the regular 16th century Spaniard.
 
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That's not what I said. Probably I wasn't clear enough.

There was already institutionalized prejudice against people of Muslim and Jewish background (presumably with a higher degree of North African admixture - but obviously we can't know that for sure) and these people of New Christian extraction participated importantly in the settlement of the New World. For their contemporaries, they weren't "fully white" or "fully christian" as both notions were somewhat interconnected in the mentality of the regular 16th century Spaniard.

Okay, I understand a bit better. A misunderstanding from my part.
 
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