White AND Red Russia?

Isn it possible for two russian states to emerge through the russian civil war?
I have no clue whatsoever if this question has been proposed but is it possible for one Russian state ruled by the Romanovs and the other a communist state or former soviet nation?

What POD would you need for the two to be side by side with one another? The red russia can be a democratic nation now btw
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Well I think you're going to have to save the Romanovs from their massacre first. Get them out of Moscow and the Palace so they can remain figureheads for the loyalists.

I think you might need Rasputin to stay alive. So maybe a POD before he dies, making him live long enough to somehow influence the events to make two Russias?
 
A CP victory might do the trick: The Germans would probably fight the Reds. However, sooner or later the German population would grow tired of the war in the East. And German ruling classes would note that two weakened Russias hating each other would be better than one wekened Russia hating Germany...
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I think we could plausibly see a White state in Siberia with its capital at Omsk if there is stronger commitment on the part of the interventionist forces in support of Kolchak, mostly on the part of the Anglo-Japanese and perhaps the Americans, though they'll probably pull out in disgust as per OTL.


Over time, we could also expect whatever forces not watching the Ural border will be sent south to Turkestan to incorporate whatever emirates and sultanates popped up in the absence Russian authority.
 
The problem for a White Russia is standing on its own after the interventionist forces leave -- there's no motivation for them to keep propping up a Siberian state after the war's over. Your best bet might be to somehow get it so that Japan keeps the White rump state propped up as a puppet, a la Manchuria ... but eventually the Soviet Union's going to call that bluff.
 
I've got one in my TL [plug/] A King's Choice [/plug] where Ukraine, Belarussia and the Don Cossaks are an independent white Russian state in a state of Cold War with the Soviet Union. I'm rewriting though. (It does start with a successful survival of the Romanovs)
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
1) I doubt very much the Romanovs would lead a White Russia if the nation was split
2) The Reds controlled the (somewhat) industrialized western Russia, while the Whites controlled the big frozen wastelands of Siberia. The Reds had all they needed to unite all of Russia. I don't think you can end up with a two state solution.
 
Definitely no Romanovs with POD in XX century. Nobody cared about them after the revolution.

It is possible to keep Reds from southern Russia - modern Ukraine - with more support from intervention forces, but it is more likely to simply gain independence as Ukraine or/and Don cossac state then continue as Russia.
Crimea may stay in Whites posession too, but it is too small and would eventually be swallowed by Reds unless some other country keeps military presense there.

Siberia is also possible, if Kolchak was not a complete failure as a "supreme ruler". It would also help if there were fewer settlers coming in 1905-1910 during Stolypin reforms. They were poor, had difficulties to find their place there and favored reds during revolution. Older russian siberians were firmly anticommunist for the most part, but Kolchak managed to anger them too.
It is hard to say how long Siberia could exist of course. But if for some reason Reds failed to restore industry in european Russia, Siberia would have a chance.

There is another idea - Reds fail to take Moscow in 1918 and it stays White. Or, alternatively, Moscow is taken but Petrograd is lost to Yudenich. If european Russia was split more or less evenly and no side had
a decisive victory, and intervention force instead of helping whites, encourage "self-determination" movements, there is a possibility of two Russias existing for much longer time. They would be less big, but still quite impressive. Siberia may also be splitted or managed to gain independence even.
 
Is the Grand Duke Michael strong enough to rally support? I know in OTL he refused the throne but I think him not being Czar Nicholas is enough to give him the army and other loyalist factions. Substitute Michael for Kolchak and we are getting somewhere right?

Re Rasputin: there was a reason he was shot, stabbed, strangled, drown and then decapitated. He was hated by everyone South of the Czarina on the Russian nobility totem pole. He wasn't popular enough among the nobles or the army to gain the respect needed to allow the Nicholas et al faction create a White Russian state.
 
Is the Grand Duke Michael strong enough to rally support? I know in OTL he refused the throne but I think him not being Czar Nicholas is enough to give him the army and other loyalist factions. Substitute Michael for Kolchak and we are getting somewhere right?

Re Rasputin: there was a reason he was shot, stabbed, strangled, drown and then decapitated. He was hated by everyone South of the Czarina on the Russian nobility totem pole. He wasn't popular enough among the nobles or the army to gain the respect needed to allow the Nicholas et al faction create a White Russian state.

Technically Michael didn't refuse the throne. He merely postponed accepting the throne until a constituent assembly decided what form of government Russia would have in the wake of the February Revolution and in the meantime accepted the Provisional Government. However, because of Russian laws of sucession, he still technically was Emperor of Russia (despite never ruling) until Kerensky declared Russia to be a Republic in, I believe, July 1917.
 

The Vulture

Banned
Maybe if Russia dissolves into warlordism, there could be a loose confederation of White territories and Red territories?
 
Technically Michael didn't refuse the throne. He merely postponed accepting the throne until a constituent assembly decided what form of government Russia would have in the wake of the February Revolution and in the meantime accepted the Provisional Government. However, because of Russian laws of sucession, he still technically was Emperor of Russia (despite never ruling) until Kerensky declared Russia to be a Republic in, I believe, July 1917.

Interesting thanks for the info.
 
The main problem here, is that there's a reason the Whites lost so handily IOTL, despite starting out in a far better position(more supporters, control of major transportation routes, sympathy from around the world, etc.). Something not often mentioned is that the White movement was actually a huge amount of movements loosely aligned in hatred of the Communists. It included minority nationalists throughout the empire, republicans, tsarists, ambitious military personel, you name it they had it. Even if they can pull together long enough to beat back the communists a little, it's unlikely that the alliance will stay put.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
With regards to any of the Romanov's leading the White rump state, it's definitely not going to be Nicholas and Alexandra's ilk. And if Michael isn't dead yet (IOTL he predeceased the Tsar and his family, so you're going to have to have a slightly earlier POD) he probably won't be in charge either.

Grand Duke Nicholas is the best bet, IMO. He was a capable, highly popular man, and a warhero as Tsar would give the various squabbling White factions a (likely powerless and therefore harmless) figurehead to unite around.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
With regards to any of the Romanov's leading the White rump state, it's definitely not going to be Nicholas and Alexandra's ilk. And if Michael isn't dead yet (IOTL he predeceased the Tsar and his family, so you're going to have to have a slightly earlier POD) he probably won't be in charge either.

Grand Duke Nicholas is the best bet, IMO. He was a capable, highly popular man, and a warhero as Tsar would give the various squabbling White factions a (likely powerless and therefore harmless) figurehead to unite around.
If you really are looking into Romanovs, what about Dmitri Romanov??
 
As people have been saying, there a variety of reasons that while not impossible, this is unlikely, and will probably mean a peripheral and foreign-dominated state (Trans-Amur/Trans-Baikal propped up by Japan, Crimea or Yugorussia propped up by the Entente).

The Whites were never in any sense a united, co-ordinated army. Ideologies and willingness to compromise on them were never clear (the movement's official manifesto was "We'll get back to you on that"), which prevented much state infrastructure not connected to fighting the Reds building up. That along with their superior organisation and control of the industrial heartland of Russia was they the Reds won.

So besides OTL's "Reds beat everyone except the most united, organised, geographically advantaged, foreign-supported nationalist factions", the other really plausible options are "the Red government goes under in 1919, Russia fragments altogether ala China" or "rump White state held up on the peripheries somewhere". You'd need to make Britain and France way more willing to get decisively involved. Perhaps a foreshortening of WW1 overlapping with an RCW butterflied about to give the Whites more advantages?

You could probably make such a state in Ukraine of the Far East monarchist, if you get the right generals in the right places. The Whites didn't let being reduced to Vladivostok and a few adjacent towns prevent them from declaring restoration. Most, however, would despite their own convictions probably see the writing on the wall.
 
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