Which Would You Prefer I Write a Timeline About?

[Yelnoc]

Top 10 Alternate History Timeline Ideas​

This is a direct continuation to yesterday's thread. Many of the suggestions were eliminated because there are already excellent timelines on the board about that subject. I don’t like wanks, so most of those ideas were scratched out. I also went ahead and eliminated a few topics that, as far as I can see, would literally require ASB intervention. This still left well over twenty suggestions; narrowing them down to a top ten was difficult enough. And so, I am asking for your help yet again.

A word of warning, just because a timeline wins the poll does not mean it will be the one I write. This is just to help me narrow it down some more. The one I do will probably be in the top three though, or at least top five. One last thing: READ BELOW BEFORE VOTING!


Ming China Continues Exploration
This idea popped into my head in AP World History today as I listened to my teacher lecture on the Ming dynasty. What if China had continued its exploration of the early 15th century rather than pull back? Could China prevent the Europeans from gaining a foothold in East Asia? Might they even establish colonies in the Americas? For this to be believable, a motive must be established, possibly requiring a POD predating the first voyage. I have some ideas (get rid of Confucianism as a major force) that could accomplish this.

Thanks to Admiral Matt for reminding me with his “Chinese India” one-liner.


Successful American Third Party
I have two political timelines I have worked off and on with. The first, which is in a bit of a more mature stage, focuses on what if the Progressive Party of Robert Lafollette in the election of 1924 had done slightly better and then hung around until the Great Depression, upon which it is catapulted to major party status. This idea would have enough ripples for a plausible alt-world War II and 20th century in general. It is by far the more ambitious of the two projects.

Your second option for an American third party is a little closer to home. What if a botched assassination of Ross Perot in 1992 caused him to do better in the election? In my outline, he still loses, but becomes the first independent candidate to win electoral votes and goes on to establish a much stronger Reform Party that runs Colin Powell in 1996. This would feature an alternate development of the internet and much different War on Terrorism, among other things. The shorter time span allows me to go more in-depth than in the Progressive Party scenario.

Thanks to nerdknight01 for reminding me of those projects. And to Alternatehistorybuff, whose “no Holocaust” suggestion might be incorporated into the first idea (at the very least a limited Holocaust).


Compact Rome
This timeline would feature a territorially smaller Roman Republic, as opposed to the sprawling empire of our timeline. My point of divergence is the survival of Viriathus, who would go on to lead the Lusitania to victory in the Numantine Wars and establish an Iberian state. This would butterfly into a more complete disaster at the hands of the Cimbri and Teutons later on.

Thanks to sudfamsci for giving me the idea. Berserker and Xwarq, if I go with this option will try to fit in a surviving Dacian kingdom and Byzantion Empire.


Imperial Chichen Itza
9 Fanged Hummingbird’s suggestion is the only American POD to make the poll. The challenge is to make Chichen Itza, a powerful Mesoamerican city-state predating the Aztecs, the premier Mesoamerican power until European arrival. I haven’t given this one a whole bunch of thought but the idea certainly intrigued me. How do you guys feel about a system resembling the Chinese Mandate of Heaven and the dynastic cycle appearing indigenously in the Americas?


House of Hohenstaufen
What if Frederick II was succeeded by a strong, direct male heir? The idea here is to make the Holy Roman Empire into a centralized state. I am thinking of contrasting this with a decentralized France.

Thanks to The Professor for that one.


Union of Prussia and Denmark
I’m a bit fuzzy on this idea. European history between Napoleon and World War II is one of my weakest areas of history. On the plus side, installing the Hohenzollerns in Copenhagen would certainly be a learning exercise. I will still need to search for a good POD but color me interested.

Thanks to Whanztastic for proposing this one.


A Land of Kings
This one is for all you Monarcho-philes out there. The object is to prevent the signing of the Magna Carter and the establishment of a Constitutional Monarchy in England. Thus, this timeline will keep John Lackland off the throne, possibly by never embarking on the Third Crusade, and allow Richard the Lionheart to plant the seeds for an Absolutist state. I may try to combine this with the House of Hohenstaufen idea for a grand alt-Europe timeline.

To sate the Scottish appetites of people like Elfwine, The British Scotsman, and yourworstnightmare, I would be sure to try and include a good bit on Scotland, though I am unsure what direction I would take the northern land in.


No Hegemony in North America
I worked on a similar idea a while ago but thanks to Jajax for both reminding me and giving it a whole new twist. What if the Mexican American War is a pathetic failure for the United States? We’re not talking about a Mexico-wank, they may still turn out just as weak or at least in balance to this timeline’s United States. We would see numerous independent states in the west. However, Manifest Destiny might not be completely extinguished, only diverted southwards to the wealthy Caribbean islands.


The Great Migrations- A Saxon Tale
For this timeline’s Saxon population, the Great Migrations of the mid first-millennium do not stop, they simply come to a temporary rest. Eventually, we will see Saxons in America, among other things. The POD I was thinking of was having Harold Hardrada win the English throne after the death of Edward the Confessor. This could lead to Saxon interaction with the Icelandic peoples. Throw in some incentive for the Saxon people to leave and you might see several groups of Saxons travelling west after the old legends of Vinland.

Thanks to Bavarian Raven for this epic idea. As a side note, this has the potential to take more of a narrative form than the other timelines.


Bad Queen Bess
Don’t string me up from a tree quite yet. Elizabeth I, the most beloved Monarch, personally didn’t do much of note. What if, through a combination of different childhood experiences, the Queen was more daring while retaining her individualist streak? Could we see a United Kingdom of England and the Netherlands? Regardless, the conceit is to make her a competent ruler who is looked upon negatively by future generations; an opposite to her actual self. Among other things, this timeline might see England’s imperialistic forays much more limited than our time line’s.

 

[thekingsguard]

I was torn between the Prussia-Denmark and the american third Party idea, but I went for the latter in the end.

 

[Xgentis]

Nothing of those proposition interest me so I am out.

 

[black angel]

I like Bad Queen Bess, largely because I love Gloriana, I'm unsure if a daring Elizabeth I would be good, England was very weak at the time, attacking in the Netherlands lead to the Spanish almost over running England, one lucky storm saved them from the Spanish, maybe you get your England-Dutch Kingdom under Queen Isabella and King Albert.....

 

[MNP]

I really like the idea of and English absolutist monarchy. Sadly that idea is losing badly.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Good luck on your WH AP exam in May. From what I remember when I took it, it was pretty easy and I only started studying the week before the exam.

 

[MerryPrankster]

"Hardrada" means "hard reign," so if you want Saxons fleeing westward (they'd probably hit Ireland first prior to Iceland), having him win and bringing in masses of unpleasant Norwegians and distributing the lands of the conquered to them might provoke an exodus.

Of course, in OTL I don't think there was massive Saxon refugee movement into Scotland and Ireland, let alone Iceland and the Americas, as a result of the Norman Conquest and the Harrying of the North. The only exiles I can think of were the ones who joined the Varangian Guard.

 

[William_Dellinger]

Union of Prussia and DenmarkI’m a bit fuzzy on this idea. European history between Napoleon and World War II is one of my weakest areas of history. On the plus side, installing the Hohenzollerns in Copenhagen would certainly be a learning exercise. I will still need to search for a good POD but color me interested.

I was torn between Imperial Chichen Itza and A Land of Kings, both would be extremely interesting. I went with Chichen Itza because I've always wondered what Columbus would think had he landed in a New World already dominated by an Empire.

The reason I quote your above statement is that history between 1800 and 1945 is really my best area of knowledge. So if you choose to do the Union of Prussia and Denmark, I'd offer my help if you need it. Good luck.

 

[Jajax]

Both the Tropical Manifest Destiny and the Imperial Chicken Pizza sound very interesting. The American Third Party sounds fascinating as well.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Prussia-Denmark and American Third Party. Gah! Too Hard to decide.

 

[Elfwine]

Some good possibilities here. I think a Land of Kings would be interesting to explore (thus my vote), with or without the Hohenstaufens - though ideally with, even if their success has been done before.

Scotland playing a significant role optional, but Scotland seems to be overshadowed too easily by a Successful England. While it probably would be, there ought to be more than just that.

 

[Rex Romanum]

About "Ming China continues exploration"...how about using the not-too-successful reconquest of China by ethnic Han people as the POD...?
The Yuan Mongols kept Northern China (Manchuria and Mongolia proper), thus leading to a more southern-oriented Ming dynasty. Moreover, due to continuous conflicts with the Yuan dynasty in the north, the Ming will be "pressured" to modernize and industrialize faster than OTL (similar with competitive situation that existed in Europe). This Ming dynasty might establish strong connections with Indonesian archipelago and India...

Nothing of those proposition interest me so I am out.

Then why do you give comment at all?

 

[Yelnoc]

I was torn between the Prussia-Denmark and the american third Party idea, but I went for the latter in the end.

Which of the two options would you (and anyone else interested in an American Third Party) prefer?

I like Bad Queen Bess, largely because I love Gloriana, I'm unsure if a daring Elizabeth I would be good, England was very weak at the time, attacking in the Netherlands lead to the Spanish almost over running England, one lucky storm saved them from the Spanish, maybe you get your England-Dutch Kingdom under Queen Isabella and King Albert.....

This timeline would invariable end with a weaker England. The idea is to highlight the juxtaposition of OTL's arguably incompetent monarch's Golden Age with a more competent monarch who in the end builds a weaker state.

I really like the idea of and English absolutist monarchy. Sadly that idea is losing badly.

This would be one of my favorite to read; I am just worried that it (and the House of Hohenstaufen which now I think about it would probably be combined somehow) are too over my head.

Good luck on your WH AP exam in May. From what I remember when I took it, it was pretty easy and I only started studying the week before the exam.

Thanks. I'll probably end up doing the same thing.

"Hardrada" means "hard reign," so if you want Saxons fleeing westward (they'd probably hit Ireland first prior to Iceland), having him win and bringing in masses of unpleasant Norwegians and distributing the lands of the conquered to them might provoke an exodus.

Of course, in OTL I don't think there was massive Saxon refugee movement into Scotland and Ireland, let alone Iceland and the Americas, as a result of the Norman Conquest and the Harrying of the North. The only exiles I can think of were the ones who joined the Varangian Guard.

I like it. As you point out, of course, Hardrada's hard reign would have to be particularly brutal but this could definately work.

I was torn between Imperial Chichen Itza and A Land of Kings, both would be extremely interesting. I went with Chichen Itza because I've always wondered what Columbus would think had he landed in a New World already dominated by an Empire.

The reason I quote your above statement is that history between 1800 and 1945 is really my best area of knowledge. So if you choose to do the Union of Prussia and Denmark, I'd offer my help if you need it. Good luck.

Thanks for the offer.

Some good possibilities here. I think a Land of Kings would be interesting to explore (thus my vote), with or without the Hohenstaufens - though ideally with, even if their success has been done before.

Scotland playing a significant role optional, but Scotland seems to be overshadowed too easily by a Successful England. While it probably would be, there ought to be more than just that.

If there is a timeline on the board please let me know. I would hate inadvertently copy another timeline. The Scotland question is still wide open; if I go with that scenario input would of course be welcome.

About "Ming China continues exploration"...how about using the not-too-successful reconquest of China by ethnic Han people as the POD...?
The Yuan Mongols kept Northern China (Manchuria and Mongolia proper), thus leading to a more southern-oriented Ming dynasty. Moreover, due to continuous conflicts with the Yuan dynasty in the north, the Ming will be "pressured" to modernize and industrialize faster than OTL (similar with competitive situation that existed in Europe). This Ming dynasty might establish strong connections with Indonesian archipelago and India...

That is certainly a possibility. Another thing I was thinking of is what if the first Ming ruler had looked back to Taoism rather than Neo-Confucianism in his attempt to build a truely Chinese state?

 

[Arrix85]

I think the ming one could be really interesting, given a good PoD.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

The Ming one and the Bad Queen Bess. Imagine if Elizabeth had the exact same legacy as her great rival Philip II!

 

[Elfwine]

This timeline would invariable end with a weaker England. The idea is to highlight the juxtaposition of OTL's arguably incompetent monarch's Golden Age with a more competent monarch who in the end builds a weaker state.

Elizabeth I? Incompetent?

Let's leave it there. Aggressiveness is not proof of ability.

No, this isn't a vote against the timeline (I voted elsewhere for reasons you already read), just...observing.

If there is a timeline on the board please let me know. I would hate inadvertently copy another timeline. The Scotland question is still wide open; if I go with that scenario input would of course be welcome.

There's the Prince of Peace by Faelin, which starts with Henry VI (Frederick II's father), the Triumph of Frederick Barbarossa and the Holy Roman Empire (which starts with Frederick II's grandfather), the timeline on Conradin (Frederick II's grandson), and at least one timeline by Eurofed involving a successful HRE thanks to the Hohenstaufens (starting with Frederick Barbarossa). Unholy Roman Empire by Midgard may also count, but I haven't read it enough to say. Then there are other discussions, but those are the full timelines I can think of in this era (for instance, A Salian England is interesting but in no danger of being ripped off with a 1250 POD).

No one has approached Conrad IV (Frederick II's son) as a point of departure that I know of, and I'd like to think I've caught the major timelines.

So I think you're on safe grounds here - 1250 on is a very different situation, with Frederick II having compromised attempts to centralize things. And unlike with Conradin, the heir is presumably accepted as emperor from the beginning (of the timeline) - his problem will be making imperial power mean anything.

Easiest way to ensure that, assuming you keep the Hohenstaufen line, is have Henry VI make the throne hereditary but everything else go essentially as OTL until 1250. Otherwise, securing royal power - as in, being emperor - will be a fight in its own right.

Meanwhile, France is moving forward, but progress is not inevitable. A run of bad luck and some rebellions ought to drag it backwards, and from there you can determine how it goes.


As for Scotland, if you go with one of the ideas where it matters, I'll see what I can think of. Scotland's kings could have done more than they did - not saying they were incompetent (some were, certainly, but that's not the point) - so there are several places to change things. And different dynasties are always fun to write about when one doesn't like their replacement, which I think is part of the charm of the Hohenstaufens and Komnenoi - what if they had achieved what they desired?

But I digress.

 

[Yorel]

Personnaly, I'd go for Chichen Itza as I find the idea very interesting and uncommon. The Ming would be my second choice for the same reasons.

The one with Frederick II could also be interesting too, but I don't think you can have decentralised France by the time you want to do so : you already had the reign of Philip II Augustus, and his grandson Saint Louis IX is already ruling and pursuing Centralization of the Kingdom. Plus, the successor of Louis IX were rather competent : Philip III did good despite being easily influenced and then there was Philip IV who did a bunch of good things regarding economy and administration.
On a side note, I always wonder why I never saw a timeline where France and Hohenstaufen HRE are allies? After all, Capetains had a pretty good relationship with the Hohenstaufen : Philip Augustus supported Philip of Swabia against Otto IV and Louis IX was friend with Frederick II despite the fact they had polar opposite personnalities (Louis being a Zealous Catholic while Frederick wasn't really giving a damn about Religion...)

 

[Rex Romanum]

That is certainly a possibility. Another thing I was thinking of is what if the first Ming ruler had looked back to Taoism rather than Neo-Confucianism in his attempt to build a truely Chinese state?

Hmm...I'm still thinking that my POD is better
But, well, it's your project and it's up to you, though.

Anyway, the survival of Yuan dynasty in Northern China might very well butterflied away Manchu invasion...and if status quo could be achieved and maintained with Ming dynasty in the South, both dynasties could focus their energies somewhere else... (not to mention about the "competitive pressure" that I mentioned before)

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Personnaly, I'd go for Chichen Itza as I find the idea very interesting and uncommon. The Ming would be my second choice for the same reasons.

The one with Frederick II could also be interesting too, but I don't think you can have decentralised France by the time you want to do so : you already had the reign of Philip II Augustus, and his grandson Saint Louis IX is already ruling and pursuing Centralization of the Kingdom. Plus, the successor of Louis IX were rather competent : Philip III did good despite being easily influenced and then there was Philip IV who did a bunch of good things regarding economy and administration.
On a side note, I always wonder why I never saw a timeline where France and Hohenstaufen HRE are allies? After all, Capetains had a pretty good relationship with the Hohenstaufen : Philip Augustus supported Philip of Swabia against Otto IV and Louis IX was friend with Frederick II despite the fact they had polar opposite personnalities (Louis being a Zealous Catholic while Frederick wasn't really giving a damn about Religion...)

It's probably because not only did French power grow at Imperial expense, but also that the Capetian moves to centralize power were quite fragile; the Hundred Years War threatened to undo it all, and the early Valois weren't exactly up to the challenge, though it all changed when Charles V of France essentially reversed Bretigny.

 

[The Professor]

Some good ideas in there.
I'd be happy to read any but will vote for my own