Which was the first power?

Well, I was reading about the Ottomans and Italy in a recent thread. I was wondering, how was the balance of powers at that time?

To summarize, Which do you believe that was the first power at that time (especially the late fifteenth century and the mid-sixteenth)? How do you could do to change the balance? Well, in general, things like that and of course respect to powers that could be involved in a turkish invasion of Italy.

(Each time it sounds more to me like the really First Great War, well, I don´t know how to call an invasion like that)
 
That's hard to answer. The Ottomans had a more efficient government, which allowed it to marshal a greater proportion of its resources, but Western Europe was much richer in terms of land and population - and the Ottomans had better unity of command and a more organized military. Once the West caught up in these regards, the Ottomans were at a distinct disadvantage.

The balance of power was pretty complicated, but I'd probably rate the Ottomans first until Charles V, when they were fairly balanced.
 
At this stage there were a lot of countries with roughly equal strength, and little ability to power project outside of their own sphere of influence. The Ottomans probably had the strongest army, with some powerful units (and a fair bit of dross) but crucially the ability to put 100,000 man armies in the field to fight on their own borders. These armies couldn't last forever (the army sent to take down Skanderbeg in Albania essentially fell apart because it wasn't able to lay hits down on his guerrilla-fighting troops for a good 6 months) and equally you'd likely not see 100,000 being transported across the Adriatic to attack Italy. France probably had the most skilled army otherwise, and repeatedly tried to make inroads into Italy over this period. In the East, Poland and Lithuania were strong but lacked the ability to influence anything beyond the countries which bordered them. The HRE was strong inside but wasn't a player on the European stage, though the Emperor (Matthias Corvinus of Hungary in 1480 IIRC) was a worthy adversary to the Ottomans, no small feat. England was strong enough to pose problems to France, but really it had already descended into the position of an island power - its army was growing weak and it couldn't support large forces, but it was trying to muscle in as a diplomatic power. Finally, the unified (not united) thrones in Spain were showing themselves to be strong, with Castile's large army offsetting Aragon's economic empire nicely, but they weren't quite ready to become France's nemesis - that was to come in the Hapsburg era (Charles I/V crowned in Spain in 1516).

Hope that helps. There really was no one dominant power at this point, that's the main point.
 
I always thought that the Ottomans were by far the Dominant power in that part of the world at the time, since they were a single state as opposed to the Europeans, which were a fairly loose alliance against them. Since the Ottomans were able to take on most of Europe by themselves surely they were the strongest individually?
 
I always thought that the Ottomans were by far the Dominant power in that part of the world at the time, since they were a single state as opposed to the Europeans, which were a fairly loose alliance against them. Since the Ottomans were able to take on most of Europe by themselves surely they were the strongest individually?

They never took on "most of Europe" at the same time, though. They fought one war after another, often with long resting periods between, and they never came face to face with strong European powers the likes of Spain, France, England (later on), Portugal, the Maritime Republics. The only states they fought were in their conquest of the Balkans, plus Hungary, Austria with HRE reinforcements, Poland-Lithuania and much later, Russia.
 
They never took on "most of Europe" at the same time, though. They fought one war after another, often with long resting periods between, and they never came face to face with strong European powers the likes of Spain, France, England (later on), Portugal, the Maritime Republics. The only states they fought were in their conquest of the Balkans, plus Hungary, Austria with HRE reinforcements, Poland-Lithuania and much later, Russia.

Ok, sorry for the oversimplification. I'm fairly sure they did face off against Spain and the Italian republics, sometimes at the same time. Barbarossa certainly did (notably at Tlemcen against the Spanish and Preveza against both). Though some of his earlier activities don't really count as Ottoman Preveza surely does.
The other powers you mentioned could lead to some interesting ATLs. I wonder how a 16th century war between the Ottomans and the England/Portugal alliance would work?
 

OK, touche. I was thinking of mentioning Lepanto but I omitted it purposely because it never would have contributed to territorial conquest, even if Christendom had actually followed up on the victory rather than just returning to their jobs. I was more thinking about land battles which contributed to territorial expansion of the two religions.
 
Lepanto wasn't the only time the Ottomans faced off against the Spanish. Sheesh, people only remember the battles they won.

The Ottomans frequently had to face European coalitions, and never really lost a war until 1683.
 

maverick

Banned
People always remember the battles that mean nothing...

Spain crushed the Ottomans at Lepanto, yet the Ottomans continued to dominate the Mediterranean.

The Spanish Armada failed to conquer England, yet Spain remained as the pre-eminent European power for another two or three generations.
 
People always remember the battles that mean nothing...

Spain crushed the Ottomans at Lepanto, yet the Ottomans continued to dominate the Mediterranean.

The Spanish Armada failed to conquer England, yet Spain remained as the pre-eminent European power for another two or three generations.

And speaking of European coalitions, the Spanish weren't exactly alone at Lepanto. In fact the majority of the fleet was Venetian. And that was the 3rd Battle of Lepanto, the previous two being crushing Ottoman victories. So there!
 
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