Which peoples before & contemporary with the Chinese, could've discovered gunpowder?

Exactly what it says on the box. I have a question I would like answered, due to my recent forays into the understanding of how gunpowder was discovered- an accidental experiment employed by cultures with advanced chemistry and access to the three special herbs and spi- I mean ingredients: Saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur.
Now, I know not every culture can make cannons, but in green Antarctica (and probably many other timelines that I have yet to read) the discovery of gunpowder, despite during the bronze age, was still revolutionary and caused them to go down a different path with the explosives that did not require the requisite metals.

So, as I stated in the title: Which peoples before or contemporary with- but independent of- the Chinese, could've discovered gunpowder?

People who would have advanced alchemy/chemistry, an access to the three main ingredients, and an incentive to use them.

I'm looking mainly at the egyptians (really any egyptians, ptolemaics especially), greeks, maybe even hebrews, or indians- but I'm also thinking that maybe the Mayans could've done it as well, although that one's a long shot.

Who, given the criteria above or related, would be in a position to do this?
 
Exactly what it says on the box. I have a question I would like answered, due to my recent forays into the understanding of how gunpowder was discovered- an accidental experiment employed by cultures with advanced chemistry and access to the three special herbs and spi- I mean ingredients: Saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur.
Now, I know not every culture can make cannons, but in green Antarctica (and probably many other timelines that I have yet to read) the discovery of gunpowder, despite during the bronze age, was still revolutionary and caused them to go down a different path with the explosives that did not require the requisite metals.

So, as I stated in the title: Which peoples before or contemporary with- but independent of- the Chinese, could've discovered gunpowder?

People who would have advanced alchemy/chemistry, an access to the three main ingredients, and an incentive to use them.

I'm looking mainly at the egyptians (really any egyptians, ptolemaics especially), greeks, maybe even hebrews, or indians- but I'm also thinking that maybe the Mayans could've done it as well, although that one's a long shot.

Who, given the criteria above or related, would be in a position to do this?

Basically, you need an established civilization with an established tradition of playing with compounds. You can call these experimenters pharmacists or alchemists, but you need lots and lots of people playing around with weird combinations of substances on a regular basis.

I suspect Ancient Egypt probably could have.
 
I'd guess the middle east, maybe in the Hellenistic period. Greek fire was only one of a history of incendiary tools, after all.
 
Gunpowder is one of those rather unique substances that doesn't really need a specific discovery to come about. The main requirement are the ingredients: sulfur, carbon, and saltpeter. The requirement for the civilization are people playing with mixing compounds (as mentioned above.)

Now to actually do something with gunpowder requires a bit more work. Advanced metallurgy is required for cannons and small arms.
 
Gunpowder is one of those rather unique substances that doesn't really need a specific discovery to come about. The main requirement are the ingredients: sulfur, carbon, and saltpeter. The requirement for the civilization are people playing with mixing compounds (as mentioned above.)

Now to actually do something with gunpowder requires a bit more work. Advanced metallurgy is required for cannons and small arms.

I say this far too often but- What about rockets?

Also you can apparently cast excellent cannons out of bronze.
 
I say this far too often but- What about rockets?

Also you can apparently cast excellent cannons out of bronze.

Rockets are a fairly simple design really. Gunpowder set on one side of a tube, which drives forward the projectile. Developing one would require some experimentation, but should be possible.

And yes, you can cast cannons out of bronze, BUT you need to develop gunpowder more to develop good cannon powder. Early powder didn't allow the charge to spread evenly, and led to far less power than existed later.
 
Rockets are a fairly simple design really. Gunpowder set on one side of a tube, which drives forward the projectile. Developing one would require some experimentation, but should be possible.

And yes, you can cast cannons out of bronze, BUT you need to develop gunpowder more to develop good cannon powder. Early powder didn't allow the charge to spread evenly, and led to far less power than existed later.

So, hypothetically, say that an early or mid bronze age civilization discovered gunpowder- would they be more likely to continue experimenting with gunpowder until they got good cannon powder, or would they be more likely to develop rockets?
 
So, hypothetically, say that an early or mid bronze age civilization discovered gunpowder- would they be more likely to continue experimenting with gunpowder until they got good cannon powder, or would they be more likely to develop rockets?

I'd imagine they would use it as a straightforward incendiary until they figured out - accidentally or by experimentation - how bombs work. Bombs benefit from the same properties as guns - fast, simultaneous combustion. And the most important factor in making cannon powder is getting the stuff wet, which is counterintuitive, but vitally important.
 
Gunpowder is one of those rather unique substances that doesn't really need a specific discovery to come about. The main requirement are the ingredients: sulfur, carbon, and saltpeter. The requirement for the civilization are people playing with mixing compounds (as mentioned above.)

Now to actually do something with gunpowder requires a bit more work. Advanced metallurgy is required for cannons and small arms.

So to develop gunpowder a people would need to know how to acquire carbon, sulphur and saltpeter. Which of the 3 is hardest to get? I know that sulphur is found naturally in a relatively pure state, carbon you can get from charcoal so the hardest to get is saltpeter. In OTL it was first found in the 1200s but the actual method isn't that complicated, conceivably it could be made with bronze age technology.
 
An outside possibility: the Hittites. They were skilled at metallurgy (they were among the first to work iron), so if they stumble upon it they could make use of it pretty early (there's a thread going about gunpowder and bronze age tech.
I'm not sure how advanced their alchemy was (if I recall correctly, Hittite religion and magic had some alchemical practices), but I suspect they would've had access to knowledge from Mesopotamian and Egyptian traditions.
All the ingredients are readily available in Hittite Anatolia.
 
An outside possibility: the Hittites. They were skilled at metallurgy (they were among the first to work iron), so if they stumble upon it they could make use of it pretty early (there's a thread going about gunpowder and bronze age tech.
I'm not sure how advanced their alchemy was (if I recall correctly, Hittite religion and magic had some alchemical practices), but I suspect they would've had access to knowledge from Mesopotamian and Egyptian traditions.
All the ingredients are readily available in Hittite Anatolia.

So we can add Hittites to the list. Out of curiosity though, barring the metallurgy bit, could any New World polities have discovered the substance?

Also, anyone in Africa besides Egypt.
 
So to develop gunpowder a people would need to know how to acquire carbon, sulphur and saltpeter. Which of the 3 is hardest to get? I know that sulphur is found naturally in a relatively pure state, carbon you can get from charcoal so the hardest to get is saltpeter. In OTL it was first found in the 1200s but the actual method isn't that complicated, conceivably it could be made with bronze age technology.

How is saltpetre created in early societies? Who are in the best position to make it?
 
How is saltpetre created in early societies? Who are in the best position to make it?

It is made - not to put too fine a point on it - from piss. Any society that keeps large numbers of livestock confined in cramped quarters for any reason will have the chance to notice deposits building up in the soil and on walls or furniture. If they collect human urine, chances are they will notice it there. Dungheaps also produce saltpetre deposits, so if you're collecting largew amounts of that anywhere, you can find it (if you're willing to dig...)

The question remains what to do with it. Saltpetre collected this way comes out in small quantities, and though you probably don't know it at that point, you're competing with farmers for it.
 
Byzantines definitely could have discovered gunpowder. Also could see Carthage,Hittites,ancient Egyptians,Mesopotamians, Ethiopians,Gaul and several others actually. For the New World, the Mayans,Inca,Thule and Mississippians. Grenades,rockets and fire arrows would be easy enough to manage without advanced metallurgy.
 
I would think you need a culture with either a religous or magical tradition that employees smoking or flaming substances for worship or show effect. Then you have priests/magicians that are regularily preparing volatile substances
 
I would think you need a culture with either a religous or magical tradition that employees smoking or flaming substances for worship or show effect. Then you have priests/magicians that are regularily preparing volatile substances

Friggin Persia and Egypt again. Goodness it's like the world is trying to tell me something!:p
 
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