Which of these territories could Germany have reasonably kept after WWI?

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Here's one assumption of mine: At the very least, Germany cannot expect to keep territories which her own government was willing to give up in 1919!

From William Halperin, Germany Tried Democracy; A Political History of the Reich from 1918 to 1933, pp. 137-8

"In April, 1919, the German government laid down a number of instructions to be used by its representatives at the Paris peace conference. It stressed the point that Wilson's program, which it regarded as binding on both sides, would have to be made the basis of the peace. It demanded a free plebiscite in Alsace-Lorraine. It rejected the separation of the Saar and the left bank of the Rhine from the Reich. It likewise insisted on keeping the great coal mines of the Saar under German control. As regards the frontier with Poland, the Scheidemannn government felt that a plebiscite was indicated in one area only, Posen. Here alone, it held, was the population indisputably Polish. West Prussia could not be ceded because that would mean the severance of East Prussia from the Reich. The cession of Upper Silesia was also inadmissible because the large amount of coal produced there was vital to Germany's existence and because the people of the region would be adversely affected by union with Poland. The latter would receive privileges from the German government which would take care of her need for free access to the sea. A Polish corridor to Danzig was out of the question. Northern Schleswig's right to self-determination by means of a plebiscite was conceded. German territories now occupied by Allied troops would have to be evacuated when peace was concluded. The American note of November 5, 1918, was to he the basis for any settlement of the reparation question. This meant payment only for damage to civilians and their property. The blockade, which was still in effect except for carefully stipulated food supplies, would have to be lifted promptly. Germany would have to regain control of her merchant fleet. In her economic relations with other countries, she would not allow herself to be fettered or handicapped. Her colonies, which had been overrun by Allied armies, would have to he returned to her. She asked only that the principle of equality be adhered to in this matter. She was prepared to serve as a mandatory under international supervision if the other colonial powers consented to do likewise. Unilateral disarmament of the Reich was rejected. Disarmament would have to be carried out on an international scale and in accordance with the principle of reciprocity. Germany definitely favored the formation of a League of Nations; she was sympathetic to the idea of settling international disputes by means of arbitration. She wished immediate admission to the League on the basis of equality with other countries. As for the Allied charge that Germany alone was responsible for the outbreak of the war, it would have to be denied forcefully and unequivocally.

"Armed with these instructions, the German delegation, headed by Brockdorff-Rantzau, arrived in Versailles on April 29, 194 The reception accorded it was far from friendly..."

So given that Germany itself was willing to give up Alsace-Lorraine, North Schleswig, and Posen (subject to referendums), I would conclude that these areas at least are lost to it. (Almost all the respondents in the poll agree about Alsace-Lorraine, but a considerable number think Germany could have held on to Posen and North Schleswig, which seems to me unlikely--though conceivably Tonder/Tondern could have been detached from North Schleswig and retained by Germany. In fact, "The Danish-German border was the only one of the borders imposed on Germany following World War I which was never challenged by Hitler." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Schleswig-Holstein#After_World_War_I)
 
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It was ethnically German, and only under French rule because the French had conquered it a few generations earlier.
The Alsatians were hardly content in the German Empire, mind. They were a majority Catholic region in a Protestant dominated nation that proceeded to attempt to repress Catholicism (Kulturkampf) and resistance to rule from Berlin continued all the way to the eve of WWI, having a fair number of 'protester delegates' to the Reichstag "who refused to accept the fact that Alsace and part of Lorraine had been annexed by Germany. The protesters ordinarily renounced participation in the public affairs of the German Empire, and they now sought places in the Reichstag only because the Reichstag provided an excellent platform from which they could tell all the world that the German regime in Alsace-Lorraine was illegal" and with the Zabern Affair being an example of the poor relations between the Alsatians and the rest of the German Empire as late as November of 1913.

Alsace-Lorraine may have been linguistically majority German but they had bad blood with the German army (which was quite present there due to being the border with France) and with Berlin's policies. Whether they preferred being French citizens or not, the people of Alsace-Lorraine were not happy with being part of the German Empire and made it quite apparent over 4 decades, though they hadn't a choice of which country to stay in in any of the map adjustments from 1871 to 1945. Still, it's not as black and white as "the French were irredentist hypocrites and the Germans were wronged."
 

Baby Kata

Banned
The Alsatians were hardly content in the German Empire, mind. They were a majority Catholic region in a Protestant dominated nation that proceeded to attempt to repress Catholicism (Kulturkampf) and resistance to rule from Berlin continued all the way to the eve of WWI, having a fair number of 'protester delegates' to the Reichstag "who refused to accept the fact that Alsace and part of Lorraine had been annexed by Germany. The protesters ordinarily renounced participation in the public affairs of the German Empire, and they now sought places in the Reichstag only because the Reichstag provided an excellent platform from which they could tell all the world that the German regime in Alsace-Lorraine was illegal" and with the Zabern Affair being an example of the poor relations between the Alsatians and the rest of the German Empire as late as November of 1913.

Alsace-Lorraine may have been linguistically majority German but they had bad blood with the German army (which was quite present there due to being the border with France) and with Berlin's policies. Whether they preferred being French citizens or not, the people of Alsace-Lorraine were not happy with being part of the German Empire and made it quite apparent over 4 decades, though they hadn't a choice of which country to stay in in any of the map adjustments from 1871 to 1945. Still, it's not as black and white as "the French were irredentist hypocrites and the Germans were wronged."

Pro-French parties stopped winning in Alsace-Lorraine in the 1890s. I have some Alsatian blood, and I see myself as a German-American, not a Franco-American.
 
Pro-French parties stopped winning in Alsace-Lorraine in the 1890s. I have some Alsatian blood, and I see myself as a German-American, not a Franco-American.
That means it took at around 20 years for the region to switch from trying to protest the situation to at least trying to make the best of it, which is not exactly a sign of enthusiasm towards being part of a nation. And Alsace-Lorraine continued to chafe under German rule and the German military for another 20 years (again, the Zabern Affair says rather a lot about the situation), that only being cut short by the World Wars.

Even if you are of Alsatian descent partially, what you feel in the United States of America in the year 2019 doesn't bear much relevance to the feelings of the Alsatian people living in Alsace-Lorraine (and then Elsass-Lothringen) over 100 years ago had towards their nationality and relationship with their government.
 

Baby Kata

Banned
That means it took at around 20 years for the region to switch from trying to protest the situation to at least trying to make the best of it, which is not exactly a sign of enthusiasm towards being part of a nation. And Alsace-Lorraine continued to chafe under German rule and the German military for another 20 years (again, the Zabern Affair says rather a lot about the situation), that only being cut short by the World Wars.

Even if you are of Alsatian descent partially, what you feel in the United States of America in the year 2019 doesn't bear much relevance to the feelings of the Alsatian people living in Alsace-Lorraine (and then Elsass-Lothringen) over 100 years ago had towards their nationality and relationship with their government.

Alsace-Lorraine would have been better off under Weimar Germany, which was not nearly as Protestant dominated. Under France in OTL, they are losing their culture and heritage and language.
 
It was ethnically German, and only under French rule because the French had conquered it a few generations earlier.
Most people in the territory voted for a regionalist party in reichstag elections, and the are had a long history as part of the French state. Strategic decisions weighed heavier on AL weighed larger than ethnographic reasons, and the annexation was a function of domestic politics to a large degree. AL gave Germany control of the fortifications at Metz and Strasbourg, as well as access to iron in Lorraine and more distance between the Rhine and the French border.

Baden and Bavaria, the German states bordering France at the time, had a substantial amount of autonomy from Berlin, putting border fortifications and imperial troops in AL bypassed this domestic issue. AL was directly ruled from Berlin as a federal territory, it only received a degree of autonomy in 1911. The Zabern affair showed that the Empire viewed the locals more like conquered subjects than fellow Germans.
 
Pro-French parties stopped winning in Alsace-Lorraine in the 1890s. I have some Alsatian blood, and I see myself as a German-American, not a Franco-American.
The Alsatian region is one of the edge cases like Kashubians, Silesians, and Masurians that make life difficult for an ethnographer or an irredentist. Over time many of these groups maintained a distinct regional identity as part of a larger ethnic group (ex. Kashubians identifying as Poles), but this was a situation that was very much in flux.

If the Prussian Lithuanians had been asked in a referendum, then Memelland would have become German territory again, but the population transfers and boundary changes of the last century seem to have extinguished that regional identity.
 
Anyone have a map showing all the Plebiscite areas at once? We should probbaly out some focus on the areas kept, rather than lost. And no matter what they kept, I imagine they would keep pushing for it all. They have maps showing the internationalized rivers claiming that they steal territory by letting the Swiss access the Rhine. Also, most of the areas listed in the pole were majority not-German. For Danzig it needs to stay independent so that the Germans don't do what they did repeatedly to dominate the Polish economy (Austrians also had a Pig War of sorts and were enraged when the Serbians started exporting through other countries). As for Alsace-Lorraine, they weren't exactly thrilled Byrne he decades as a military colony of the Prussians. Anyways, the French needed that land to help pay off their massive debts to American bankers. Especially a big issue as the Germans destroyed all the French mien and industry they could when they realized they were losing, as well as never really paying much anything in the way of reparations. They got double what they needed for reperations from American bankers, and Washington kept pushing the French, Belgians, and British to forgive or hold off on collecting reperations while refusing to give the Entente a break.
 
The overwhelming majority of Alsatians considered themselves French. France had conquered Alsace 200 years before.
I concur. Especially since French nationalism was more of a civic nationalism than an ethnic nationalism. The Alsatians considering themselves French meant they were French.
 
IMO, they could easily have kept Saarland, Eupen-Malmedy and Memelland. They could have kept Danzig, too, if they paid for the construction of a seaport for Poland in the corridor area.
 
IMO, they could easily have kept Saarland, Eupen-Malmedy and Memelland. They could have kept Danzig, too, if they paid for the construction of a seaport for Poland in the corridor area.
Not sure about Eupen-Malmedy. The Belgians were the clear victims in this, and the closest the Germans got to leaving the area was saying they would let the area be a demilitarized zone if they got the Belgian Congo.
 
Not sure about Eupen-Malmedy. The Belgians were the clear victims in this, and the closest the Germans got to leaving the area was saying they would let the area be a demilitarized zone if they got the Belgian Congo.

Belgium did not want Eupen-Malmedy and was willing to sell it back to Germany in the 1920s, negotiations were, already, underway, but France intervened and stopped them.
 
Belgium did not want Eupen-Malmedy and was willing to sell it back to Germany in the 1920s, negotiations were, already, underway, but France intervened and stopped them.
Still needed to throw them a bone. And their were some people who wanted land. Any land, really. They also expanded into German colonies during the war, but didn't move too far so they British didn't feel they had to try telling them no. I only post the link below to a propoganda map as it shows some of the losses the Austrian Netherlands made to the Prussians when it was handed over to the Dutch. I don't see the Belgians acting like the Serbs and annexing Luxembourg (as was down with Montenegro), and i doubt whatever their parliament was would be happing with gaining too many Flemings, even on the offchance the Dutch WERE willing to gain land from the Germans in exchange for their own centuries old land. The Dutch weren't fond of gettting any land from Germany after WWII either, besides for some hills they later sold back. If the Germans simply paid their reperations for all the damage they did to Belgium, and the Dutch where pressured into finally giving Rotterdam full access to the sea they would be happy. After all, they would then have a vested interest in the Germans rebuilding (not that they needed too, having quite before their own stuff got damaged) as they would hopefully see an increase in shipping. But yes, I recall the King of Belgium was once offered Luxembourg if he ceded land to France. Got a big fat no, of course. Better to keep to your own borders and not let neighbors nibble at you.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...appen-map-thread.317821/page-45#post-17457658
 
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