which louis

There are two louis who died during the thirteen century before becoming king.

Louis son of Louis IX who died aged fifteen, and louis son of Philip III of France who died aged twelve who was older brother to Philip thenfair.


Louis son of Louis IX was betrothed to Berengaria of Castile, whilst his nephew,and namesake was uncommitted at the time of his death.

Which would make the more interesting timeline?
 
There are two louis who died during the thirteen century before becoming king.

Louis son of Louis IX who died aged fifteen, and louis son of Philip III of France who died aged twelve who was older brother to Philip thenfair.


Louis son of Louis IX was betrothed to Berengaria of Castile, whilst his nephew,and namesake was uncommitted at the time of his death.

Which would make the more interesting timeline?

Louis of Philip would have trouble with his little brother. Philip the Fair did not like to be second chair.

I would rather go with Louis of Louis, as I find Philip III a disappointement.
 
Louis of Philip would have trouble with his little brother. Philip the Fair did not like to be second chair.

I would rather go with Louis of Louis, as I find Philip III a disappointement.

Hmm interesting, would Philip the Fair plot against his older brother then? Or would he simply wait for a chance for his brother to fuck up? I imagine Louis of Philip would marry Joan of Navarre?

And as for Louis of Louis, interesting, what do you think his survival could change?
 
Hmm interesting, would Philip the Fair plot against his older brother then? Or would he simply wait for a chance for his brother to fuck up? I imagine Louis of Philip would marry Joan of Navarre?
You could see Phillip The Fair becoming the French equivalent of Richard III of England. Waiting for Louis X to die with young heirs and take the throne through unethical means.
Are you marrying him to Joan of Navarre simply because Philip the third marrying her?

Other wives are:
- Eleanor of England (18 June 1269 – 29 August 1298) the eldest daughter of King Edward I of England and his first wife, Queen Eleanor of Castile.
- Marie of Brittany (1268–1339) was the daughter of John II, Duke of Brittany, and Beatrice of England.
- Margaret of Scotland (28 February 1261 – 9 April 1283), the daughter of King Alexander III of Scotland and his first wife, Margaret of England.
- Violant of Castile (1265–1287/1308) the daughter of Alfonso X of Castile, and Violant of Aragon.
- Isabella of Burgundy (1270 – August 1323), second daughter of Hugh IV, Duke of Burgundy[1] and his second wife Beatrice of Navarre.
- Isabelle (died 1335), married (in otl 1287) daughter of Frederick III, duke of Lorraine and Margaret, daughter of King Theobald I of Navarre.
 
You could see Phillip The Fair becoming the French equivalent of Richard III of England. Waiting for Louis X to die with young heirs and take the throne through unethical means.
Are you marrying him to Joan of Navarre simply because Philip the third marrying her?

Other wives are:
- Eleanor of England (18 June 1269 – 29 August 1298) the eldest daughter of King Edward I of England and his first wife, Queen Eleanor of Castile.
- Marie of Brittany (1268–1339) was the daughter of John II, Duke of Brittany, and Beatrice of England.
- Margaret of Scotland (28 February 1261 – 9 April 1283), the daughter of King Alexander III of Scotland and his first wife, Margaret of England.
- Violant of Castile (1265–1287/1308) the daughter of Alfonso X of Castile, and Violant of Aragon.
- Isabella of Burgundy (1270 – August 1323), second daughter of Hugh IV, Duke of Burgundy[1] and his second wife Beatrice of Navarre.
- Isabelle (died 1335), married (in otl 1287) daughter of Frederick III, duke of Lorraine and Margaret, daughter of King Theobald I of Navarre.

Hmm Eleanor of England or Margaret of Scotland would both be fascinating, Margaret especially if the succession issues in Scotland play up as they did otl. Which could see Edward getting even more involved.
 
Though of course if Louis marries Margaret of Scotland that raises questions about the peace with Norway, though considering how fucked the Norwegians were after that particular war, perhaps they'll give up on a marriage between the two.
 
Hmm Eleanor of England or Margaret of Scotland would both be fascinating, Margaret especially if the succession issues in Scotland play up as they did otl. Which could see Edward getting even more involved.
They were two of my top three the other being Brittany with the possibility of bringing it under French rule.

The Spanish brides are generic.

So the most interesting would most likely be Louis X married to Margaret of Scotland and having his heir as Prince of France and Scotland.
 
They were two of my top three the other being Brittany with the possibility of bringing it under French rule.

The Spanish brides are generic.

So the most interesting would most likely be Louis X married to Margaret of Scotland and having his heir as Prince of France and Scotland.

Oh that would be fascinating, it starts the auld alliance a few decades earlier, and also provides for interesting considerations for England as well. Should, that whole succession crisis continue then for Scotland? WOuld the Scots nobles accept a Prince of France as their future King as well?
 
Oh that would be fascinating, it starts the auld alliance a few decades earlier, and also provides for interesting considerations for England as well. Should, that whole succession crisis continue then for Scotland? WOuld the Scots nobles accept a Prince of France as their future King as well?

That is interesting, because one of the only things we know about Louis is this sentence from his father (in Joinville)) :

Biaus Fiz, je te pri que tu faces amer au peuple de ton royaume, car vraiement je ameroie miex que uns Escos venist d’Escosse et gouvernast le peuple dou royaume bien et loialement qui si tue le gouvernasses mal apertement


Fair son, please be loved by the people of your kingdom, for I rather like having a Scot coming from Scotland to rule the people of the kingdom truly and loyaly than (if) you openly rule badly

(broken traduction is mine ; hard to translate middle French into modern English)
 
That is interesting, because one of the only things we know about Louis is this sentence from his father (in Joinville)) :




Fair son, please be loved by the people of your kingdom, for I rather like having a Scot coming from Scotland to rule the people of the kingdom truly and loyaly than (if) you openly rule badly

(broken traduction is mine ; hard to translate middle French into modern English)

Oh that's very interesting, so perhaps an encouragement for the alliance then coming from his father?
 
Oh that would be fascinating, it starts the auld alliance a few decades earlier, and also provides for interesting considerations for England as well. Should, that whole succession crisis continue then for Scotland? WOuld the Scots nobles accept a Prince of France as their future King as well?
With a son not being born, any issue being born between Louis and Margaret will be heir to France just like OTL Margaret of Norway maiden of Scotland.
I think the Scottish lords would prefer a half Scottish prince who could marry a Scottish noblewoman. Especially if it is an option against an English king from London ruling them
Oh that's very interesting, so perhaps an encouragement for the alliance then coming from his father?
His father would see this as a great alliance to stop England
 
With a son not being born, any issue being born between Louis and Margaret will be heir to France just like OTL Margaret of Norway maiden of Scotland.
I think the Scottish lords would prefer a half Scottish prince who could marry a Scottish noblewoman. Especially if it is an option against an English king from London ruling them

His father would see this as a great alliance to stop England

This is very true. I do wonder, could we see factions forming then around various objectives, Bruce and Comyn waging a subtle war for influence over the future King of Scotland, whilst Balliol maybe retreats toward their English lands?
 
With a son not being born, any issue being born between Louis and Margaret will be heir to France just like OTL Margaret of Norway maiden of Scotland.
I think the Scottish lords would prefer a half Scottish prince who could marry a Scottish noblewoman. Especially if it is an option against an English king from London ruling them

His father would see this as a great alliance to stop England
This is very true. I do wonder, could we see factions forming then around various objectives, Bruce and Comyn waging a subtle war for influence over the future King of Scotland, whilst Balliol maybe retreats toward their English lands?

If *Louis X behaves like a 13th c. Capetian prince, he would probably make provisions for separate destinies of France and Scotland, if he and Margaret have two sons. They would establish cadet dynasties in foreign lands rather than to try distance management. Louis IX did renunce his wife's Provence inheritance in order to provide for his brother Charles' italan ambition ; Philip III tried to conquer Aragon for his younger son Charles de Valois, not for the firstborn Philip.
 
If *Louis X behaves like a 13th c. Capetian prince, he would probably make provisions for separate destinies of France and Scotland, if he and Margaret have two sons. They would establish cadet dynasties in foreign lands rather than to try distance management. Louis IX did renunce his wife's Provence inheritance in order to provide for his brother Charles' italan ambition ; Philip III tried to conquer Aragon for his younger son Charles de Valois, not for the firstborn Philip.

This is very true, regarding this Louis's other brothers, what would become of them Philip the Fair could still marry Joan of Navarre, I imagine that Charles will continue down his path.
 
This is very true, regarding this Louis's other brothers, what would become of them Philip the Fair could still marry Joan of Navarre, I imagine that Charles will continue down his path.

Let's not forget the second Louis (the Count of Evreux), who probably would end up as a Jean ITTL. With so many princes in the French royal house, he could end up in Church, or maybe as a radical Franciscan a la Louis d'Anjou.
 
Let's not forget the second Louis (the Count of Evreux), who probably would end up as a Jean ITTL. With so many princes in the French royal house, he could end up in Church, or maybe as a radical Franciscan a la Louis d'Anjou.

Oh interesting, maybe as Pope aha.

But yes, so if Louis X has one son, what does he do?
 
Oh interesting, maybe as Pope aha.

But yes, so if Louis X has one son, what does he do?

One son means personal union, but with a representative in Scotland. Maybe dear brother/uncle Charles... Could that be enough to keep the scottish aristocracy in line ?
 
One son means personal union, but with a representative in Scotland. Maybe dear brother/uncle Charles... Could that be enough to keep the scottish aristocracy in line ?

Very possible I imagine, though they might demand major concessions if so. With two sons, I can definitely see things getting itchy
 
How's this sound:

Louis X of France (b. 1260) m Margaret of Scotland (b. 1261)

Issue:

Louis of France (b. 1280)

Alexander of France and Scotland later Alexander IV of Scotland (b. 1282)

Mary of France (b. 1286)

Margaret of France (b. 1288)
 
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