Which ethnic groups could have been fully assimilated into larger ethnic groups?

CaliGuy

Banned
With a PoD of 1800 or later, which ethnic groups could have been fully assimilated into larger ethnic groups?

For the record, I am thinking of something similar to what the Occitans and Provencals in France experienced in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Anyway, here are my own thoughts on this:

-Had the Bolsheviks made Belarus a part of the Russian SFSR, they would have probably turned Belarusians into Russians by the end of the 20th century.
-Had Russia seized eastern Galicia sometime before 1880 and thus prevented the growth of Ukrainian nationalism there, and had Russia implemented Russifying policies throughout the 20th century, it would have probably been able to turn Ukrainians into Russians.
-Had the Bolsheviks lumped Kazakhs and Kyrgyz into one SSR in the 1920s or 1930s, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz would have probably been considered one people by now. Indeed, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz were actually lumped together on the 1897 Imperial Russian census!
-If Romania manages to avoid losing Moldova to the Soviet Union, then Moldovans would have probably become Romanians by now.
-If Bulgaria would have won WWI, Macedonians would have probably become Bulgarians by now.
-If France had avoided taking Laos from Thailand in 1893, Laotians would probably consider themselves Thai by now.
-I suppose that Tsarist Russia could have expanded Finland to include Estonia. Indeed, if this would have been done early enough (as in, in the early 1800s), perhaps Estonians would come to consider themselves Finns by now.
-I suppose that Tsarist Russia could have tried creating a common Baltic identity for Latvians and Lithuanians. Indeed, if this would have been done early enough (as in, in the early 1800s), perhaps Latvians and Lithuanians would come to consider themselves one people by now.
-Obviously had Hitler died in 1938 and Goering would have avoided sparking World War II, then Austrians would have considered themselves Germans by now.
-Had the 1802 Peace of Amiens held, France would have probably been able to completely assimilate the Walloons. (As for the Flemings, they might have ended up like Alsatians--in other words, French patriots but not fully assimilated.)

Anyway, what exactly am I missing here?
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
Also, I have read about policies such as Magyarization:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarization

However, I think that such policies would have had limited success due to the large cultural differences between Hungarians and the ethnic groups whom they were trying to assimilate. Plus, it didn't help that Romania, Serbia, and Czechia (inside of Austria) could be used as bases to spread nationalistic propaganda into Hungary.
 

Deleted member 97083

Going with the France example you mentioned with Provencal and Occitan.

Potentially, any one country conquering any other region could have at least partially assimilated the region, if it happens prior to mass education and industrialization, and continues for decades.

Perhaps a mega-French Empire lasting over a century could have assimilated the Rhineland with a mix of migration and compulsory French language usage.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Going with the France example, Provencal and Occitan.

I meant in addition to those ones.

Potentially, any one country conquering any other region could have at least partially assimilated the region, if it happens prior to mass education and industrialization, and continues for decades.

That I agree with.

Perhaps a mega-French Empire lasting over a century could have assimilated the Rhineland with a mix of migration and compulsory French language usage.

Yes, there would probably indeed be some assimilation in this TL. However, what you are likely to see is having the Rhinelanders end up like the Alsatians--in other words, not fully assimilated but nevertheless French patriots.
 
Full assimilation is going to be determined by the size of the population to be assimilated into , the size being assimilated and then the time and social pressures to make assimilation occur . Now looking at this from an Australians point of view we have never had any culture fully assimilate into the secondary (original being Aboriginal and it's many tribes) primarily English culture . The many influences of the various cultures that have arrived have led to a very interesting situation . Every city has Asian grocery stores with non English languages next to English . Every workplace I have been in has people who know more then one language fluently . Every friend I have ever had has a different cultural upbringing . Yet come State of Origin we all identify as either blues or Queenslanders (NSW is Blue but we don't give them or their supporters the time of day ) and get very tribal about our identity . I say this to try and illustrate that assimilation can take different forms I I want to know do you men that their culture is fully suppressed or that it is no longer identifiable as different from the larger one . Either way full assimilation is going to take longer then 100 years , simply because the grandchildren will learn what it used to be like from the grandparents etc . It takes far more then 3 or 4 generations for absorption and assimilation of a cultural group . To speed this up would require tactics and a ruthlessness I could not even discuss out of disgust .
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I think it would be harder than you would expect to create a common Baltic identity for Latvians and Lithuanians. The Lithuanians had a long history of being their own nation, starting with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Lithuanian National Revival was already underway in the 1880s too. Augenis is this board's Lithuania expert, you can try asking him if it is possible.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I I want to know do you men that their culture is fully suppressed or that it is no longer identifiable as different from the larger one .
Yes, this--like for German-Americans.

Also, didn't various other European ethnic groups either mostly or completely assimilate into (White) Austrian society?

I think it would be harder than you would expect to create a common Baltic identity for Latvians and Lithuanians. The Lithuanians had a long history of being their own nation, starting with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Lithuanian National Revival was already underway in the 1880s too. Augenis is this board's Lithuania expert, you can try asking him if it is possible.

I agree that Lithuanians would be unlikely to become Latvians due to their long history of independence. However, could Latvians have become Lithuanians?
 

Deleted member 97083

Yes, there would probably indeed be some assimilation in this TL. However, what you are likely to see is having the Rhinelanders end up like the Alsatians--in other words, not fully assimilated but nevertheless French patriots.
That is more likely. The difficult part is getting the motivation for the French state to continue the policies of assimilation in hypothetical French Rhineland, beyond making the locals know French as second language for business and being French patriotic against Prussia, to thinking they are French first and only. The French Empire was liberal for the time so it would be difficult to make them push that hard.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
That is more likely. The difficult part is getting the motivation for the French state to continue the policies of assimilation in hypothetical French Rhineland, beyond making the locals know French as second language for business and being French patriotic against Prussia, to thinking they are French first and only. The French Empire was liberal for the time so it would be difficult to make them push that hard.
Agreed that it would be difficult to go beyond that. After all, in addition to the French Empire's liberalism, there is also the very real possibility that German nationalistic propaganda from German territories east of the Rhine would be brought into France (either legally or illegally) and would thus help influence the Rhinelanders to maintain their own identity.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I agree that Lithuanians would be unlikely to become Latvians due to their long history of independence. However, could Latvians have become Lithuanians?

If the Russians try resettling Lithuanians in Latvia and Latvians in Lithuania and force the usage of Lithuanian while banning Latvian then maybe it would be possible. But this would probably backfire, as the Russians have basically increased the population of Lithuanians, increasing their influence and making them harder to control. It also prevents them from using divide-and-conquer tactics against Latvians and Lithuanians in the event of an uprising. The only real upside to this is limiting the influence of the Poles on Lithuania.
 
At the risk of getting too political, given the way demographics in the US are going Hispanics may well be integrated into the white ethnicity like the Irish and Italians were.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
At the risk of getting too political, given the way demographics in the US are going Hispanics may well be integrated into the white ethnicity like the Irish and Italians were.
Some Hispanics? Yes, certainly. However, I suspect that many Hispanics would maintain a lot of their culture, et cetera given that the influence of Latin America is nearby. Indeed, this isn't like Italians or Germans where their country of origin is an ocean away!

If the Russians try resettling Lithuanians in Latvia

Why does this part have to be necessary, though?

and Latvians in Lithuania and force the usage of Lithuanian while banning Latvian then maybe it would be possible. But this would probably backfire, as the Russians have basically increased the population of Lithuanians, increasing their influence and making them harder to control. It also prevents them from using divide-and-conquer tactics against Latvians and Lithuanians in the event of an uprising. The only real upside to this is limiting the influence of the Poles on Lithuania.

By that logic, though, shouldn't Imperial Russia also play divide and conquer among the Ukrainians and Belarusians by encouraging separate identities for these peoples?
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
By that logic, though, shouldn't Imperial Russia also play divide and conquer among the Ukrainians and Belarusians by encouraging separate identities for these peoples?
Why do that when they could just force all the East Slavs to be Russians?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Why do that when they could just force all the East Slavs to be Russians?
Because Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Russian peasants and workers might be more inclined to argue with each together than to join forces against Imperial Russian rule.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Because Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Russian peasants and workers might be more inclined to argue with each together than to join forces against Imperial Russian rule.
Ethnic Russians could be expected to be more loyal to the Tsarist regime than non-Russians though, so there is a benefit to Russifying everyone you can. There isn't a benefit to Lithuanizing anybody, unless you are afraid the Lithuanians are going to get Polonized.
 

CalBear

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Donor
Monthly Donor
Some Hispanics? Yes, certainly. However, I suspect that many Hispanics would maintain a lot of their culture, et cetera given that the influence of Latin America is nearby. Indeed, this isn't like Italians or Germans where their country of origin is an ocean away!



Why does this part have to be necessary, though?



By that logic, though, shouldn't Imperial Russia also play divide and conquer among the Ukrainians and Belarusians by encouraging separate identities for these peoples?
You touched on an important point. Is the group to be assimilated "complete"? Hispanics (and Asians) in the U.S. receive on-going "new blood" that helps to keep the traditions alive.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
You touched on an important point. Is the group to be assimilated "complete"? Hispanics (and Asians) in the U.S. receive on-going "new blood" that helps to keep the traditions alive.
Good point--indeed, the less "new blood" there is, the more thorough and "complete" assimilation is probably going to be.
 
With a PoD of 1800 or later, which ethnic groups could have been fully assimilated into larger ethnic groups?

For the record, I am thinking of something similar to what the Occitans and Provencals in France experienced in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Anyway, here are my own thoughts on this:

-Had the Bolsheviks made Belarus a part of the Russian SFSR, they would have probably turned Belarusians into Russians by the end of the 20th century.

This is possible, given the weakness of Belarusian nationalism.

-Had Russia seized eastern Galicia sometime before 1880 and thus prevented the growth of Ukrainian nationalism there, and had Russia implemented Russifying policies throughout the 20th century, it would have probably been able to turn Ukrainians into Russians.

I am not sure of this. Galicia was a stronghold of Ukrainian nationalism, yes, but Ukrainian language and Ukrainian identity was also a noteworthy factor in Tsarist territories. Perhaps more of a Scottish than an Irish take?

-Had the Bolsheviks lumped Kazakhs and Kyrgyz into one SSR in the 1920s or 1930s, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz would have probably been considered one people by now. Indeed, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz were actually lumped together on the 1897 Imperial Russian census!

Possible.

-If Romania manages to avoid losing Moldova to the Soviet Union, then Moldovans would have probably become Romanians by now.

Possible.

-If Bulgaria would have won WWI, Macedonians would have probably become Bulgarians by now.

Possible.

-If France had avoided taking Laos from Thailand in 1893, Laotians would probably consider themselves Thai by now.

Possible.

-I suppose that Tsarist Russia could have expanded Finland to include Estonia. Indeed, if this would have been done early enough (as in, in the early 1800s), perhaps Estonians would come to consider themselves Finns by now.

That, actually, would not be very likely. The Finnic peoples on the northern and southern shores of the Gulf of Finland have long had very separate histories and identities, dating back at least as far as the middle ages, when Finland was part of the Kingdom of Sweden while the Estonian lands were subjected to the Teutonic Knights.

Now, if we are talking about the relationship of Finland with Karelia, that blurred borderland substantially populated by Finnic peoples with close ties of language and history to Finland, that is different.

-I suppose that Tsarist Russia could have tried creating a common Baltic identity for Latvians and Lithuanians. Indeed, if this would have been done early enough (as in, in the early 1800s), perhaps Latvians and Lithuanians would come to consider themselves one people by now.

I am not sure about that. With the partial exception of the Catholics of Latgale, in the southeast of Latvia, Latvians and Lithuanians have long had separate histories and identities. The religious difference between the Latvians and Lithuanians co-exists with longer distinctions going back to the middle ages, when the Lithuanians were the core of an arguable great power but the Latvians were under the Teutonic Knights.

-Obviously had Hitler died in 1938 and Goering would have avoided sparking World War II, then Austrians would have considered themselves Germans by now.

Quite possible.

-Had the 1802 Peace of Amiens held, France would have probably been able to completely assimilate the Walloons. (As for the Flemings, they might have ended up like Alsatians--in other words, French patriots but not fully assimilated.)

I suspect the Walloons would have been readily assimilated. I am not necessarily sure about the Flemings, as much depends on what this France is actually like.

Anyway, what exactly am I missing here?

Much depends on the pre-existing nature of relations between the two peoples. If there are meaningful distinctions which go back in history a long way, and especially histories of opposition of rivalry, merger is not likely. If there are no such meaningful distinctions, merger is possible.
 
1) Czechs could probably have been assimilated into Germans- they've been subject to a dominant German culture for about 400 years, and prior to WW1 Germans made up about 30% of the population of what is now the Czech Republic. I think the way you'd achieve this is by having the Austrian Empire pursue stronger Germanization policies in the 19th century, with the result being that by the time WW1 comes about, Bohemia and Moravia are about 65% German and 35% Czech. After the war and the dissolution of Austria-Hungary, Bohemia and Moravia become part of the newly-independent Austria, and then part of the Third Reich in the 1930s after Anschluss.

2) The (Arab) Palestinians could certainly have assimilated into the Egyptians and Jordanians if things went a little bit differently after 1967.

3) Cypriots would have considered themselves Greeks in the event of a successful Enosis.

4) If Belgium wasn't created, there probably wouldn't be any Flemings or Walloons. Just Dutch and French.

5) Malays and Indonesians would likely have been considered the same if they hadn't ended up in different countries upon independence.

6) No partition of India = no Pakistanis or Bangladeshis.

7) Azerbaijan becomes part of Turkey after WW1. Azeris now consider themselves Turks.

8) Similarly, if Turkey takes over Turkmenistan, the Turkmen ethnicity would disappear into the larger Turkish one.

9) Border between Bangladesh and Myanmar is drawn slightly differently. Result: No Rohingya- they would consider themselves Bangladeshi.

10) Republic of China wins the civil war. No Taiwanese identity exists by the present day, having been subsumed into the Chinese identity.

11) In 1922, the referendum on whether Southern Rhodesia should become part of South Africa goes differently. Result: neither the Zimbabwean identity nor the Rhodesian identity ever develops.
 
I think it would be harder than you would expect to create a common Baltic identity for Latvians and Lithuanians. The Lithuanians had a long history of being their own nation, starting with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Lithuanian National Revival was already underway in the 1880s too. Augenis is this board's Lithuania expert, you can try asking him if it is possible.
hehe.

Yeah, what you're saying is correct. Latvia and Lithuania may look like close neighbours on a map and the Baltic Way may give you an idea of a pan-Baltic identity, but the actual concept of Latvian-Lithuanian brotherhood only arose in the 20th century.

There would be no way Tsarist Russia would try to assimilate Latvians into Lithuanians, either, because their plan was to assimilate both into Russians, so they would have no reason to create a pan-Baltic nation.
 
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