Which China would modernize better?

Which China?

  • Qing China

    Votes: 2 7.1%
  • Ethically Chinese Dynasties

    Votes: 26 92.9%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
As I saw there are many arguments relating this subject, I decided to make a poll to somewhat conclude it.

Qing China: In OTL, although politically backward and corrupted, the Qing actually did great job on her "Self-Strengthening" campaign, that there are modern enterprises which founded itself during the Late Qing, and her reformed armies were crucial in defeating the Taiping Rebellion. Assuming these facts, someone argued that given the right PoD, like Cixi died earlier, or there were more competent emperors in Late Qing, Qing China would be able to become a modern country.

Ethical Chinese dynasties: More precisely, a surviving Ming or Shun. Those who saw Qing as too oppressive to implement true political and economic reforms (well, there were many bribes between the local officials and the westernized companies) found possibilities on dynasties that were ethically more "right". One of their arguments are that (actually it's me:p), as the Qing were historically oppressive---forbidding freedom of speech, an emperor who held much political power along with the Grand Council that worked secretly etc., such that it created an sociopolitical atmosphere which discouraged any kind of reforms that would shake the status quo, thus there were chances that whatever the less oppressive Ming or the newborn Shun would pushed herself a more successful, and completed, modernization.
 
Do you mean having the traditional dynasties reborn, or never having the Qing in the first place?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Do you think that a surviving dynasty would have made the same geopolitical choices as the Qing, fought the same wars, agreed the same treaties?

I don't know enough pre-19th century Chinese history, I am afraid

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I must admit, I find the traditional view on Cixi- the reactionary autocrat holding China back- impossible to reconcile with history. That some reforms took place when we have records that she was indeed the true and absolute power behind the throne indicates she must have been at least merely Conservative and open to reform rather than outright reactionary. The fact that they were planning for the creation of an elected (though IIRC advisory) Parliament when she died in 1908 puts her practically in the position of mild reformist.

I think the right PoD in the late Qing (and I think it's really a case of avoiding the First Sino-Japanese war which completely screwed up the country for quite a while and pulled the rug out from the emerging economy) could certainly produce a modern state, but it'll be a long and difficult process.
 
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