Where would a colonial minded Ming Empire have expand to?

If the 15th century journeys of Zheng He had served for China the role that Columbus journeys did for Europe, as opposed to soon abandoned sojourns. How far could China have expanded and where would it have looked to expand to?

Would we have seen China as a significant rival to the European powers of the 16hth century and beyond?
 
Why would there be a colonial Ming empire in the first place?

Zhang He fleet isn’t meant to be like European colonial expedition rather it is like the USA Great white fleet meant to increase the Ming prestige’s and to expend the Ming tributary system.
 
The problem with Zheng He’s fleet, is that the Chinese sent out these fleets to show Chinese military and political dominance and bring back any tribute and ambassadors to pay homage to the Ming Emperor.

A more colonial minded Ming, it’d be more at best trading posts around Asia then Chinese colonies
 
The problem with Zheng He’s fleet, is that the Chinese sent out these fleets to show Chinese military and political dominance and bring back any tribute and ambassadors to pay homage to the Ming Emperor.

A more colonial minded Ming, it’d be more at best trading posts around Asia then Chinese colonies
Even trading outposts are unlikely at best u see smugglers outpost rather than an official government sanction trading station.

From the government POV, Establishing trade outpost and colonies are meaningless. China has everything they need and what they don’t need but want such as silver foreign traders will bring it to them or through the tributary system.

The Ming has bigger shit to deal with than to establish any sort of trading empire much less colonialism
 
Colonialist Ming is pretty unlikely. It hadn't ambitions for that and was outright isolationist. It hadn't even reason to do that.

But if Ming China decides to do that it hardly is going to do much beyond coastal Asia like Philippines and Indonesia.
 
Colonialist Ming is pretty unlikely. It hadn't ambitions for that and was outright isolationist. It hadn't even reason to do that.

But if Ming China decides to do that it hardly is going to do much beyond coastal Asia like Philippines and Indonesia.
Philippines is possible in that the Ming clear out the pirate dens there and to ensure there isn’t anymore asshole pirates raiding China coastal provinces set up outpost to deter piracy. Maybe it will turn into a full on colonial province but I won’t hold my breath

Indonesia I guess have a more tributary expansionist system? But I can’t see that happening tbh
 

Gabingston

Kicked
Southeast Asia is the obvious choice here. Even then, it may be less of a direct colonization and more of making the Southeast Asian states Chinese tributaries (which I'm pretty sure was the case to some extent IOTL), while Chinese merchants and settlers move down there (also OTL).
 
Southeast Asia is the obvious choice here. Even then, it may be less of a direct colonization and more of making the Southeast Asian states Chinese tributaries (which I'm pretty sure was the case to some extent IOTL), while Chinese merchants and settlers move down there (also OTL).
If OP mean if there is going to be Chinese colonies then yeah most certainly that will happen. OTL have dozens of kongsi federations which are a weird hybrid of trade unions/business collective/trade federation entities. Some of whom fought the Dutch colonial administration.

Thing is Chinese immigration are not Chinese government actually sanction. Virtually all immigration to SEA is mostly due to the Chinese merchants own initiatives. To have a Chinese dynasty actually sanction colonies like European the entire dynastic philosophy and and administration have to be changed radically. To the point it is unrecognisable compare to OTL
 
If OP mean if there is going to be Chinese colonies then yeah most certainly that will happen. OTL have dozens of kongsi federations which are a weird hybrid of trade unions/business collective/trade federation entities. Some of whom fought the Dutch colonial administration.

Thing is Chinese immigration are not Chinese government actually sanction. Virtually all immigration to SEA is mostly due to the Chinese merchants own initiatives. To have a Chinese dynasty actually sanction colonies like European the entire dynastic philosophy and and administration have to be changed radically. To the point it is unrecognisable compare to OTL

I don't see why it would take a drastic change for the Ming to create something roughly equivalent to the British East India company? and have those chinese merchants who are going to enter those lands anyways serve as official representatives of the Ming but still operate roughly autonomous, again like the private European companies who played a large role in European colonization.
 
I don't see why it would take a drastic change for the Ming to create something roughly equivalent to the British East India company? and have those chinese merchants who are going to enter those lands anyways serve as official representatives of the Ming but still operate roughly autonomous, again like the private European companies who played a large role in European colonization.
There’s no incentive whatsoever for the Ming to have a colonial empire. To the Ming and later Qing China has everything the government needs and what they want such as silver could just be traded by foreigner coming to them for trade.
Official stance to trading with foreigners is not really isolationist but more “we just ignore it as long as it bring in the silver”. The Ming and later Qing have a dim view on trade and certainly won’t go out of their way to get even more of it. But are pragmatic enough to let merchants do what they want so long as the government gets it cut.

Again if u want a legitimate East Indies company for Ming and the later Qing dynasty you have to overturn the entire philosophy of the dynasties regarding foreign trade and interaction. Which is easier say than done since China has bigger shit to deal with than doing an Eu4 campaign in SEA.
 
Many of the Ming emperors were reasonably secure, and the system gave the Emperor considerable authority. I really think people in this thread are underestimating how much you could change by just making one of the emperors enthusiastic about colonization and exploration, or having an alternate succession that puts someone like that in power. Probably best to pick someone with a long reign for maximum effect, of course.
 
Chinese colonization of Taiwan was never imperial policy. It was only started by the Dutch in the 16th Century to procure labourers, and then by Ming remnants escaping the Qing Dynasty. Pretty much every Chinese empire left it to their own devices until Japan annexed it in 1895. Only after that did it came to the fore in Chinese nationalist thought as a blight to their pride that was, in their minds, eventually avenged with the retrocession after WWII.

While it's certainly doable and achieved IOTL, Taiwan ultimately doesn't offer anything special that the mainland doesn't already have. Instead, it has tropical diseases and rebellious aborigines that would make any effort to colonize the island even less worth its salt.
 
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The coast of Taiwan have some Han Chinese settlements but it wasn’t till OTL Ming dynasties fall that it is settled by Ming loyalist

The Ming dynasty don’t need an island with jungles and hostile natives when they have plenty of land in mainland China. Heck even the Qing considered abandoning Taiwan after taking it from the Ming loyalist
 
Many of the Ming emperors were reasonably secure, and the system gave the Emperor considerable authority. I really think people in this thread are underestimating how much you could change by just making one of the emperors enthusiastic about colonization and exploration, or having an alternate succession that puts someone like that in power. Probably best to pick someone with a long reign for maximum effect, of course.

I think the main snag is that it's easy to have something as an emperor's personal whim - but a personal whim is just that, a personal whim. It's not a solid foundation for a long term change in imperial interests and priorities, or how the government in general treats this stuff past humoring the emperor.

So ignoring philosophy for a moment. What do the Chinese doing this actually want to trade for, or to set up colonies for?
 
Chinese colonization of Taiwan was never imperial policy. It was only started by the Dutch in the 16th Century to procure labourers, and then by Ming remnants escaping the Qing Dynasty. Pretty much every Chinese empire left it to their own devices until Japan annexed it in 1895. Only after that did it came to the fore in Chinese nationalist thought as a blight to their pride that was, in their minds, eventually avenged with the retrocession after WWII.

While it's certainly doable and achieved IOTL, Taiwan ultimately doesn't offer anything special that the mainland doesn't already have. Instead, it has tropical diseases and rebellious aborigines that would make any effort to colonize the island even less worth its salt.
This is a bit silly, it's extremely close and easy to colonize, the idea China would colonize places farther away but not Taiwan doesn't strike me as likely, especially given almost anything they would colonize is either tropical or tundra.
 
The coast of Taiwan have some Han Chinese settlements but it wasn’t till OTL Ming dynasties fall that it is settled by Ming loyalist

The Ming dynasty don’t need an island with jungles and hostile natives when they have plenty of land in mainland China. Heck even the Qing considered abandoning Taiwan after taking it from the Ming loyalist
Taiwan isn't more tropical than Fujian and Guangdong and the natives are pretty weak in numbers.
 
This is a bit silly, it's extremely close and easy to colonize, the idea China would colonize places farther away but not Taiwan doesn't strike me as likely, especially given almost anything they would colonize is either tropical or tundra.
Uh, I didnt mention anything about China ignoring Taiwan for other places, though. I'm just answering about the possibility of Taiwan as a Ming colony only. In fact, the same attitude imperial China had for Taiwan applied pretty much everywhere else. There just wasn't any dearth in resources of any kind in China that could have convinced the Ming (or any other dynasty) to pursue colonization, especially when there's already ample land to colonize within its own territories.
 
This is a bit silly, it's extremely close and easy to colonize, the idea China would colonize places farther away but not Taiwan doesn't strike me as likely, especially given almost anything they would colonize is either tropical or tundra.
I just like how to u just ignore everything others and I just wrote lmao
 
Taiwan isn't more tropical than Fujian and Guangdong and the natives are pretty weak in numbers.
I was thinking exactly, if the Han chinese "colonized/conquered" and assimilated southern china from 200bc-1ad, i dont see how they couldnt repeat the same thing with the taiwanese natives
 
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