Where Socrates And Buddha Meet: The Story Of Indica, The Indo-Greek Kingdom

Chapter 1
Since he was a boy, Alexander IV was in awe of the empire his father had made. He'd gaze at the maps for hours, going over every detail with his tutors while his father spoke with his generals. He'd seen trophies taken during his father's conquests, tribute brought by nobles from every corner of his domain. His mother didn't appear too impressed with this bounty, but she never did anything to dampen his enthusiasm.

However, after he reached the age of fourteen, a thought came to him.

How can such a vast empire be held together? How can all of it be organized? How could peace be kept between so many different groups? How long did it take to assimilate these new territories and why?

And if his father was constantly on campaign, how long would it take before the empire became too unwieldily? He'd asked Perdiccas during a visit to the palace by the general. Perdiccas was shocked by the boy's question, telling him that there were threats only a general could be counted on to deal with, but that a wise ruler never went to them for everything. When he looked over the map of his father's domain, he started to feel a little sick. There were so many thing that could go wrong if a sturdy foundation for their empire was not put in place.

It was then that he realized there would be an enormous challenge awaiting him once he took up the throne. One that he couldn't wait to begin tackling once his father passed. He'd need to begin as soon as he could, learn all he could of what went into shoring up the stability of an empire.

Lest his father's efforts all come undone.
 
Chapter 2
Two months later,

Alexander IV was in the palace gardens with Iamus, a visiting nobleman from Corinth. The man was the first aristocrat Alexander was planning to discuss his ideas with.

"May I ask you a question, Iamus?"

"I will answer to the best of my ability."

"The villa where you live, it was inherited, yes?"

"It was, my prince. Inherited from my father upon his becoming infirm." Alexander nodded.

"Now, when you acquired it, did you make any additions to it?"

Iamus took a moment to think.

"Not at first. He had been neglecting the orchards where we harvested grapes. Those required attending to. We needed more workers and some of the sick plants needed to be culled."

"But were there any other pressing issues that required your attention?" the prince asked. "Were the walls in need of repair, the mortar in need of renewal?"

"Nothing quite so drastic." Iamus answered. "But it would have been imprudent to add more to the structure before the fields were attended to."

Alexander grinned.

"If the prince will forgive me, I would like to know the reason for his sudden interest in my estate."

"To acquire a frame of reference." he replied. "In my own way, I am to inherit a estate of my own upon my father's demise or retirement."

He circled around the fountain as he continued speaking.

"I will not be so ungrateful as to suggest that it too small for my taste, too confined. But I worry."

"As the dutiful son of a ruler should." Iamus replied. Alexander laughed.

"I implore you to be honest with me. Do you believe that my father is too focused on the expansion of his...villa?"

The nobleman stared at him for a moment.

"The riches provided by his conquests have been immense, but I fear that should your father seek only to expand the width of his house, he may not be giving upkeep the required amount of attention." Alexander snapped his fingers.

"Precisely. We could have a pestilence break out in Persia that makes its way to my father's very doorstep. A famine, internal strife brought about by populations who haven't been made to see the glories of being part of my father's household."

Iamus slowly nodded.

"It matters not how opulent an estate can be if its supports are paid no mind to." the nobleman said.

"My thoughts exactly."

"You may not agree with your father's methods but your filial piety cannot be denied. Will that be all?"

"Yes." Iamus began walking in the direction of the library, leaving Alexander IV to his thoughts. He knew that there was a great deal to learn about correctly handling nobles. This was a good enough start, but he'd need to get a lot more of them on his side if he was to succeed at his goals.
 
Chapter 3
Three years later,

"We are still being given trouble around storm season," Eudamus told Alexander IV. The prince was being given a walking tour of the easternmost settlement of his father's domain, part of a tour he was taking of the asian regions of the kingdom. He didn't want the city's garrison or locals to cease their regular routines on account of his presence, so there were laborers moving to and fro to build fortifications and homes under the watchful eyes of patrolling soldiers.

"You did an admiral job ensuring your stores were sturdy enough. When I heard of the harvests you were reaping I could scarcely believe it."

"I trust what was in our stores helped ease your worries."

"It had."

The prince was on the last stop of his tour of the empire's eastern territories. He'd seen Persia, Bactra and other places taken during his father's greatest campaign. Alexandria on The Indus was a potential trading center with the Indian kingdom to the south. It would not be a major seaport but it could open ties with multiple settlements along the course of the river. It could be a major agricultural hub. A number of colonists had already arrived, mainly from Thrace. Some natives were also among the inhabitants of the city, as well as the populations of the other cities he'd come across.

As proud as he was to see such gains, he was still deeply troubled. Holding all this together was a gargantuan task and his tours of garrisons across the empire did little to ease him. There were long periods of time where merchants would have next to no protection from bandits or chances to resupply their provisions.

There were too few outposts and population centers in the eastern half of the empire to ensure the quick movement of trade and military forces. If the empire's links were to be strengthened, then transportation would need to be greatly improved. There needed to be posts not just for soldiers but for colonists and merchants on their way to their destinations. Colonists would be needed to help populate the new cities.

Along with with native population that have come to live within them. He felt that the burning of Sagala was both unnecessary and counterproductive. It could have been a jumping off point, yes, but keeping its infrastructure intact could have been a major boon for his father. It would have to almost be rebuilt in its entirety.

The substandard contact with the rest of the empire allowed for the satrap his father put in charge of Alexandria On The Indus to be assassinated by mercenary soldiers, and now two officials were in charge of the city, Eudamus and Taxiles. Taxiles himself was going to be speaking to Alexander later.

Upon his return home, Alexander IV intended to speak with his father about what could be done to shore up the empire. His father may not find his ideas particularly 'exciting' but he needed to ensure that his concerns were made clear.
 
Chapter 4
Two years later,

Alexandria on the Indus,

Meera kept a tight grip on the basket of wheat, following her father closely. A spear wielding guard moved aside and the two moved through the gateway into the town. Its buildings were of a similar make to her home, baked mud exteriors with some sort of wooden interiors. The inhabitants more or less copied the methods her people used but there were differences here and there.

Meera hardly remembered a time before they were there. The people across the river. The Yavanas. They called themselves 'Greeks' or sometimes 'Macedonians'. Her father dealt with them ever once in a while, trading with them. From what he told her, they came from a place with many mountains and islands where finding places to grow food was difficult. They lived in large towns that sometimes fought with one another, huge places the Yavana called 'polis' with names like 'Athens,' 'Sparta,' and 'Corinth.' They sounded like Pataliputra to the east.

'Alexandria on the Indus' was the easternmost settlement in a vast empire forged by a Yavana warlord name Alexander. There were fears in her town, in years past, that the Yavana would take over her town like they had a great many others. However, they simply settled down on the opposite side of the river and started building homes. They built fortifications, but they also started to farm, fish, and form families.

The children of some of these families were watching the procession Meera and her father were a part of, some hiding behind their mothers and some from behind trees. Meera never really interacted with them during her few visits to the settlement. She mainly helped her father sell some of their crops, rarely leaving his side. The rest of her siblings were at home, caring for their mother who had come down with a fever. These visits were usually a family affair. Once they were done, they took a boat to their side of the river and went home.

The group moved to the local market place and started walking up to the traders. Meera was standing next to her father who was speaking to once of the settlers when she saw movement out of the corner of her eye. Was it a thief? She turned to see a young girl in a white and red dress now standing close to her. The girl had messy brown hair and green eyes, and she seemed to be not much younger than Meera. Judging by the girl's smile and how she was slightly bobbing up and down on her sandals, she at least didn't mean any harm. The girl pointed at herself.

"Damaris," she said. Meera stared at her for a moment before it occurred to her what the girl was saying.

"Meera." she replied, pointing to herself. Damaris giggled and pointed to a man of her skin tone talking to someone in Meera's group. The two were next to a pair of wooden cages housing chickens. She guessed that the man was Damaris's father and took the chickens to be a giveaway that her family raised livestock. Meera pointed to her own father who was now looking at the two girls. She was at first afraid that her father would become upset, but he was more curious than annoyed. Damaris looked up at Meera's father and looked a little nervous. Before Meera could say anything, the girl dashed off to where her own father was. Meera and her father looked at each other but their focus was directed to a potential customer.

On the boat ride back to their side of the river, Meera's father was still perplexed.

"Did you talk to that girl before?"

"No, father. That was the first time we ever spoke. Her name is Damaris."

"Did she want anything?"

"I believe she was just...curious. She hinted that her family raised chickens."

Her father seemed lost in thought as they reached the shoreline. When they crested the small hill where they lived, he asked her a surprising question.

"Would you like to...see her again?"

Meera wasn't sure what to say. She knew so little about the girl but Damaris seemed eager to talk to her before they were interrupted. It was her first real interaction with one of the Yavana children.

She supposed that it would be rude not to try speaking to Damaris again just once.
 
Okay, this is not an era that I know a lot about - but I really did enjoy these chapters and I'm excited by the premise. The idea of a Grecco-Indian culture forming could be just very vibrant and awesome!
 
Okay, this is not an era that I know a lot about - but I really did enjoy these chapters and I'm excited by the premise. The idea of a Grecco-Indian culture forming could be just very vibrant and awesome!
The world will tremble before the curry and lentil gyro. Tremble! But in all seriousness, Buddhism is remarkably similar to Greek stoicism.
 
Chapter 5
One month later,

Alexander IV was silent, trying to keep his nervousness from showing as his father perused the scrolls given to him by his son. He, his father, and some of his father's generals were taking part in a dinner meeting to discuss what the prince felt were the lessons of his 'eastern trek'. Some of the generals were also reading over scrolls while slaves refilled their plates of food.

The ruler of this new Macedonian empire only arrived the previous day. His army was received with cheers at the city gates all the way to the palace where the prince and his mother awaited him. Alexander IV wished to hear of his newest adventure but wanted more than anything to bring his ideas to his father's attention. Alexander the Great was now pouring over the findings of the prince's time in the eastern territories.

It was the first time the two had seen each other in almost a year.

"The need for a more robust supply system is something you repeat often," said Alexander the Great. "Garrisons between colonies to serve as the centerpieces for their own towns."

"Not without justification, father. It is not only to ensure that an army in the field can be more easily equipped but that traders and colonists need not have such an arduous journey between posts."

The way his father looked at him was slightly unnerving. The fact that his army was forced to retreat from the Indian frontier for lack of supply and exhaustion overtaking his soldiers was a very sore subject and for a moment the prince wondered if his ideas were going to get tossed out right then and there.

"My liege, a refined means of transport could be critical to responding to uprisings in time," said Seleucus. "Not to mention it could be a vital lifeline for our colonies in the east."

"Colonies that could grow to be so much more," the prince added. "Alexandria on the Indus can provide bountiful crops unfit for the soil of Macedonia but it could be a center of trade that our people can take pride in as well. If we wish to ensure the loyalty of the masses we must show them that our empire is indeed bountiful and that they can enjoy this bounty themselves. They need to be able to have a true role in making our dominion strong."

"Hence why you suggest that the slaves of treacherous noblemen be sent east to help colonize," said one of his father's generals.

"They must do so as freedmen," Alexander the IV replied. "They must have a personal stake. I have also spoken to aristocrats who feel that a move to the east would be beneficial for them." The prince shrugged. "I may have inferred that they will have less in the way of competition should they go to the Indus Valley or Asia Minor."

"Yes, I see that there have been ten minor families so far that have made the journey," Alexander the Great said looking at one of the scrolls. "Dammekos of Crete seems to be the most wealthy of those aristocrats who have moved east. They still need to understand that such opportunities come with responsibilities, my son."

"And refining the links within our empire can ensure they do so. A strong garrison can put an upstart nobleman to the sword if need be."

"Forgive me, my prince," said Krateros "but one of the messages you provided is...curious."

"How?"

"I have before me a message from the satrap of Bactra stating that some of the nobles who came to help colonize have married with local families of influence. Was this the result of a policy you laid down or..."

"I never gave any official pronouncements advocating for such a thing." The prince took a bite out of his hare, hoping that having food in his mouth would keep him from smirking.

Meanwhile,

A nobleman's house, Bactra

The servants attempted to carry out their duties to the best of their ability while tuning out the noise coming from the second floor bedroom. Rostam, a man of around twenty two, had been making good progress finding ways of ignoring the noise. His cohorts were a mixture of native inhabitants and servants brought over from Helos in Sparta. They stayed with Otonia's parents before her marriage and moved over to her husband's home.

All Rostam had to do was finish cleaning the kitchen and he'd be able to go to his quarters. He just needed to keep his composure. When he was about to put away some bowls, he heard a woman letting out a cry of ecstasy from the second floor bedroom. Misenus, a cleaner who originally travelled to Bactra with Otonia's family, pinched the bridge of his nose.

"Are Spartan women usually so loud when they're being...delighted?" Rostam asked. Misenus sighed.

"They are when their husbands seem to know what they're doing like the master of the house appears to."

Back at Alexander's palace,

"I...was not shy about approving of such things though." Some of his father's general burst out laughing.

"We've even had three births as a result of these marriages in Persepolis over the course of the last year," the prince added. "Greeks and Persians, father, like you and mother."

"Be careful, your highness," Krateros said. "While the nobility can be convinced to do their share of ensuring that goods and soldiers can be swiftly transported, they may not be so quick to adopt marriage with the aristocrats of the eastern territories. They may not protest if commoners from Macedon, Athens or Corinth intermarry with natives, but to expect it of the aristocracy can be interpreted as you...crafting useful bloodlines."

"I don't follow."

Krateros took another gulp of his wine.

"If the prince outright endorses intermarriage, there could be those who would argue that he is using pedigree as a means of ensuring that a sizable portion of the aristocracy back him. Upon the time his highness takes up his father's throne, a whole generation of nobles in the east would grow to manhood owing him their very existence. He would also find keeping them pacified a somewhat easier task."

"Your enemies could see the children born of such marriages as a very long term investment to your advantage," Alexander the Great said. "Especially since some of your supporters among the nobility are going east to avoid having to compete with more established families. I warn you my son, you should be careful when playing with pedigree."

His father's last words on the subject stuck in Alexander IV's mind as he sat in his bed. 'Playing with pedigree.' It sounded so odd. He didn't have any sort of long term plan in mind when he said he didn't see a problem with Greek nobility intermarrying with the wealthy families of the new territories. Those births weren't part of his design.

They still happened though. The children would grow up being the upper class of a vast empire that his father had forged, that the prince was adamant on shoring up as much as possible.

Perhaps an intermixed aristocracy could be of use to that end.
 
Very interesting TL.
His father's last words on the subject stuck in Alexander IV's mind as he sat in his bed. 'Playing with pedigree.' It sounded so odd. He didn't have any sort of long term plan in mind when he said he didn't see a problem with Greek nobility intermarrying with the wealthy families of the new territories. Those births weren't part of his design.

They still happened though. The children would grow up being the upper class of a vast empire that his father had forged, that the prince was adamant on shoring up as much as possible.

Perhaps an intermixed aristocracy could be of use to that end.
So, ITTL, seems that would happen a similar process to the one that OTL after the fall/dissolution of the Macedonian/Seleucid empire, make possible the emergence of the Indo-Greek kingdoms and at some extent of the Hellenistic culture as well as its mutual interaction with the Indian one... Only that, ITTL 'd seems that it would be a more prolonged and deeper process and one stimulated and protected by an strong Macedonian empire...
 
Very interesting TL.

So, ITTL, seems that would happen a similar process to the one that OTL after the fall/dissolution of the Macedonian/Seleucid empire, make possible the emergence of the Indo-Greek kingdoms and at some extent of the Hellenistic culture as well as its mutual interaction with the Indian one... Only that, ITTL 'd seems that it would be a more prolonged and deeper process and one stimulated and protected by an strong Macedonian empire...
Yep. Constant flow of Greeks seeking new opportunities as well as intermingling with native Indians is going to make quite the hybrid culture. A lot of Buddhist philosophy is quite comparable with Greek schools of thought.
 

Gabingston

Kicked
The world will tremble before the curry and lentil gyro. Tremble! But in all seriousness, Buddhism is remarkably similar to Greek stoicism.
I wonder if they come from a common Indo-European root? Speaking of that, I wonder how long it'll be until the Greeks notice similarities between their language and Sanskrit (or vice versa)?
 
I wonder if they come from a common Indo-European root? Speaking of that, I wonder how long it'll be until the Greeks notice similarities between their language and Sanskrit (or vice versa)?
Oh they'll notice. Very quickly. It's gonna help with the development of what we'd know of today as the 'Indican' language.
 
Yep. Constant flow of Greeks seeking new opportunities as well as intermingling with native Indians is going to make quite the hybrid culture. A lot of Buddhist philosophy is quite comparable with Greek schools of thought.

I'm actually interested in not only Buddhism, but also the interactions between the Hinduisms that existed at the time and Greek philosophy. The similarities between Sanskrit and Greek have been mentioned above; but it won't take long for the Greeks to also notice more than a few not-so-subtle similarities between the Vedic Gods and their own. And the early Upanishads have most likely already been composed at this point, and the later verse ones were in the process. So there's a lot of Indian philosophy to interact with Greek philosophy and generate some very fascinating intellectual currents :)
 
Loving this idea really want to see him interact with places likeRome,Athens and Sparta especially the development of Indo European culture and cool to see trade with China maybe dunno the situation at the time.
 
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Loving this idea really want to see him interact with places likeRome,Athens and Sparta especially the development of Indo European culture and cool to see trade with China maybe dunno the situation at the time.
I'm still trying to plan out how they'd interact with China.
 
I'm still trying to plan out how they'd interact with China.
Tbf the main point of interaction between an Indo Greek civ and the Chinese civ is on the Central Asian steppe so it depends on what philosophy and religion arrives and leaves China.

Also how're you doing ittl's religions? Like you could still feasibly do a Roman Empire and Christianity but idk what you're gonna do so I'm not gonna comment about it. Hell for all I know the cult of Isis may become the main religion of ittl Europe.

PS: considering how the Greeks are still maritime peoples at heart if they get to the South of the continent or they conquer the entirety of the Gangetic plain I could see SEA colonies where the Greeks mainly put down ports and do resource extraction while doing missionary work. It is very possible that SEA is majority Buddhist ittl.
 
I'm still trying to plan out how they'd interact with China.
I'd guess that the first and for a while, the most important would probably be made mainly through either Chinese merchants/travelers or subjects of Macedonian Empire. Also, I believe worth to have into account that IIRC, TTL empire would be contemporaneous to the last stages of the warring states period of the eastern Zhou dynasty.
 
Has Chandragupta not established Maurya Dynasty yet? Cause, if a unified empire exists in india then I simply can't see a way for the Greeks to push into the Northern plains, they will be drowned in numbers alone. A unified Indian(North Indian) empire may even shatter the Greek empire and if not an outright reverse conquest than can still push the Greeks out of the subcontinent.
 
Am doing research for upcoming chapters but I need help putting together some ideas. I'm thinking of having Alexander the IVth send the slaves of disloyal nobles sent eastwards to settle and have fortress cities set up to provide housing and supplies for settlers. What do you think? Greek expansion further inward will not occur until a century later when the neighboring Indian empire experiences severe difficulty.
 
Chapter 6
Sorry it's been so long. Been doing a lot of research. Hope you're OK with this.

Alexandria Kasperia (Lahore IRL)

Niko never ceased to be dazzled by the way the trees and flowers seemed to shine in the midday sun. She could easily recall her life in Delphi where she spent most of her childhood, though most of those memories were bitter. However, for as verdant as Delphi was in spring, her new home city put it to shame. It was filled with the most vivid and deep colors. The leaves of the trees and bushes seemed healthier, flush with life. As difficult as the journey to Alexandria Kasperia was, she felt her own life was made richer for having made the trek.

The palace of the Satrap, Porus, was supposed to have a magnificent garden. Niko wished she'd be able to see it, but the guards would detain her the moment she got too close to the governor's home. She had no business being on the premises.

When she looked away from a tree that was beginning to bear fruit, her face turned a vivid red once she saw a bronze skinned young man walking nearby carrying a basket. He wasn't a soldier, but he was well built from his time working the orchards.

The one Niko could rarely take her eyes off of. The one her sister taunted her about from time to time. The one who made her breath catch in her chest whenever he spoke to her.

Shamsher, a man who dwelt in Alexandria Kasperia even before it was known by that name. Niko had met him first in the marketplace where he was dealing with an overly aggressive brute who was throwing a tantrum over the price of the fruit being sold. Shamsher was polite to him at first, but after the man smashed two guavas on the paving stones, Shamsher broke his nose. She knew Shamsher to be a gentle man most of the time, at least from what she gleaned during the conversations she had with him before the fight, but the lout had disrespected him and his family by wasting their produce.

Niko approved of what he did. She relished seeing that ill tempered food clutching his nose and seeing the blood coming out his nostrils. It was not long after that when the Marathon girl realized she'd fallen for him.

Thankfully, it looked like she was out of his line of sight and he didn't turn to address her. It seemed he was deep in thought about something. Niko exhaled once he walked out of sight. She would work up the courage to spend time with him in a more intimate setting. Just not today. And when they took a stroll though the town together or went somewhere private, Niko hoped Aphrodite would smile upon her.
 
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