Where is Peiper stopped?

Not sure if this should be in ASB or post-1900.

I just finished watching Robert Shaw in "Battle of the Bulge" for the umpteenth time. He (as the Joachim Peiper inspired Hessler) is exultant that his brigade has advanced beyond all other German Panzer units in the offensive.

So, assuming the real Peiper rolls a "Yahtzee" and keeps to HIS objectives, and on schedule, how long before:

a) All the other German attacks are stopped cold, and

b) The full fury of the American Army is turned upon him?
 
Not sure if this should be in ASB or post-1900.

I just finished watching Robert Shaw in "Battle of the Bulge" for the umpteenth time. He (as the Joachim Peiper inspired Hessler) is exultant that his brigade has advanced beyond all other German Panzer units in the offensive.

So, assuming the real Peiper rolls a "Yahtzee" and keeps to HIS objectives, and on schedule, how long before:

a) All the other German attacks are stopped cold, and

b) The full fury of the American Army is turned upon him?

Gahhh, mate that film will rot your brain! Every time I see it, it pisses me off immensely - especially as it mentions Montgomery and his 8th Army. Yeah, right.
The answer to your question is a simple one - even if he'd kept on schedule he'd have never got beyond the Meuse, as Monty moved XXX Corps there in the early days of the offensive.
 
Seeing as we're referring to the movie, I'd say the Americans wait until the snow has melted and the Ardennes baked into steppe-land before counter-attacking. Peiper's got some time.
 
La Gleize, probably. *Maybe* the butterfly gardens at Awaille. The show was over, by that time. Actually, the show wasn't only over, the actors had all been fired.
 
he might have captured some fuel from la glieze or even captured the 1st army hq at spa without super asb's... however, the farther he goes (depending if Ike's hyper conservatism can be overcome) the great chance of encirclement and destruction... in the end his task force which amounted to little more than a rienforced brigade could only go so far from the jump off point and have any hope of supply
 
Gahhh, mate that film will rot your brain! Every time I see it, it pisses me off immensely - especially as it mentions Montgomery and his 8th Army. Yeah, right.

Well, the film did end with an apology, regarding how action was simplified, synthesized, and in some cases "re-created" (made up;)) for either dramatic purposes or to convey the general sense of the events of the battle. They couldn't create a heavy wintery snow storm, so they used what they could. Though even I can't forgive the final tank battle taking place in a desert! AFAIK, the only desert in Europe is in Poland (the Bledowska Desert).

As to the reference to the 8th Army? Well, it WAS under Monty's command, and since the film was for the entertainment of a general audience, and not a documentary, the film makers were forced to dumb it down quite a bit. How many Joe Schmucks out there would recognize the meaning of "21st, 12th, and 6th Army Groups?" After all, if they had said: "The British Army", then the Canadians would have been pissed, along with veterans of the 9th US Army.

The answer to your question is a simple one - even if he'd kept on schedule he'd have never got beyond the Meuse, as Monty moved XXX Corps there in the early days of the offensive.

This is why I highlighted the schedule and Peiper's rolling a "Yahtzee", meaning that everything ran perfectly for him, and only him. The rest of the German advance being either OTL, or taking advantage from his success by virtue of being in a very nearby sector. Had Peiper been on schedule, he would have been across the Meuse River within 48 hours, before Monty could even have reacted. Throughout the 16th, headquarters was convinced the Ardennes represented mere spoiling attacks. It was nearly the end of the 17th (the end of Peiper's schedule) before Ike finally accepted that he was up against a full scale offensive. To put it mildly, those two days were the worst (professionally) of his and Bradley's careers.

This represents one reason why historians have given so much credit to very small local units, often down to squad levels, for making so many suicidal stands at crossroads that served to slow down the Germans incrementally, until they fell hopelessly behind schedule. In the early days of the battle (during the timeframe of Peiper's schedule) the men in the field were getting no help from headquarters.

Note-I am NOT suggesting for a heartbeat that Peiper had even the remotest chance of "winning" the battle. That is why I limited this to a discussion solely of his own brigade. Namely, just how far does he get before the hammer drops on him, and how does it fall? While OTL and in the film he just runs out of gas, I'm supposing that he and he alone faces minimal resistance, and therefore has minimal fuel consumption in battle (which AIUI is six times what it is just going peacefully from point A to point B).

What I AM suggesting is the possibility that Peiper could cross the Meuse, cruise into Belgian territory west and northwest of the river, and start heading for Antwerp. Or did his orders forbid any such action, requiring him to wait for follow up troops at the river. If not, does he face the specter of the whole of XXX Corps, not to mention any other units Monty chooses to deploy, slamming into his right flank and front?
 
Where's he getting the gas from? That's what stopped him in the first place. If memory serves, he had to abandon his vehicles during the retreat because of it.

I'm assuming a perfect combination of luck and daring allowing him to "bounce" around American units and penetrate deeper and far more quickly without the enormous fuel consumption constant fighting would create. Hence the "Yahtzee" terminology.
 
La Gleize, probably. *Maybe* the butterfly gardens at Awaille. The show was over, by that time. Actually, the show wasn't only over, the actors had all been fired.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Actually, since the film was conveying mostly the sense of the battle from the NORTHERN flank of the battle, not the Southern, the question of breakouts there had been settled even before the weather broke. Which is why the film didn't cover airpower. In regards to that, the film helped to make up for the Hollywood and television injustices created in previous (and later) renditions of the Battle of the Bulge that left you with the impression that the whole battle was fought and won by the 101st Airborne Division, Patton's 3rd Army, and the Air Force.:mad::mad::mad: IOW, the Southern Flank of the battle.
 
I'm assuming a perfect combination of luck and daring allowing him to "bounce" around American units and penetrate deeper and far more quickly without the enormous fuel consumption constant fighting would create. Hence the "Yahtzee" terminology.


Well, I have to say that's a heck of a assumption. The terrain there is pretty restrictive; the Americans knew very well what roads the Germans would have to use (a finite number), and they covered them. "Bouncing" around American positions with significant amounts of armor seems unlikely.
 
Well, I have to say that's a heck of a assumption. The terrain there is pretty restrictive; the Americans knew very well what roads the Germans would have to use (a finite number), and they covered them. "Bouncing" around American positions with significant amounts of armor seems unlikely.

Hence the term "Yahtzee".:rolleyes: After all, what are the chances of rolling six dice and having all six of them come up showing "sixes"? A good example of just how unrealistic the whole "Watch on the Rhine" plan was. Even Sepp Dietrich said it had at best a 10% chance of success.
 
Hence the term "Yahtzee".:rolleyes: After all, what are the chances of rolling six dice and having all six of them come up showing "sixes"? A good example of just how unrealistic the whole "Watch on the Rhine" plan was. Even Sepp Dietrich said it had at best a 10% chance of success.

I guess what I was getting at was that the six dice are there; the six sixes are there and could be rolled. The unwatched roads significant enough to carry a panzer army didn't. It would be like trying for a Yahtzee with no dice.
 
I guess what I was getting at was that the six dice are there; the six sixes are there and could be rolled. The unwatched roads significant enough to carry a panzer army didn't. It would be like trying for a Yahtzee with no dice.

I simply am saying that the crossroads and bridges would be crossed at a speed and time frame such that local units didn't have time to respond quickly enough. The odds of it are fantastic, but not impossible. The odds of a full Yahtzee is 46,656:1. Possible, but remote. I was merely supposing that only ONE brigade achieved this.
 
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