Where for Biology and Geology What-ifs?

Where do discussions of Biological and Geological what-if go?

For example:
Biological, what if Humans had a tail or a recognizable Estrus cycle?
Geological: No connection at at Panama, closed Mediterannean or more significant Zealandia?

Do they belong in this group or in ASB?
 
Where do discussions of Biological and Geological what-if go?

For example:
Biological, what if Humans had a tail or a recognizable Estrus cycle?
Geological: No connection at at Panama, closed Mediterannean or more significant Zealandia?

Do they belong in this group or in ASB?

ASB by Ian's ruling.
 
ASB by Ian's ruling.

Can I ask where/when he made this ruling?

I made this claim in another thread, probably a year ago, and another poster disagreed, and referred to a post where Ian had a less absolutist opinion on the subject. Granted, that post was more than two years ago since today, so maybe he's changed his mind:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=2159636#post2159636

Ian said:
Anyway, there's no reason a geographical WI that isn't ASB can't go in the Before 1900 forum. If you have a WI set in 100 million BC, fine. It only becomes ASB if you have a massive geographical change, and then still have human civilization develop the way it did. For example, say Africa has no land connection to the Middle East... but the Romans are still around even though humans got out of Africa by foot.
 
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I've always consisdered that geological or evolutionary PoDs can be in this section in the same way that the quote from Ian suggested. To me it has always seemed cheap to automatically call these ASB. In the examples given, I'd say the ones about human tails and estrus are mostly ASB, because you are essentially no longer talking about human beings but speculating just to be speculating. I am much more lenient about geological PoDs. As Ian said, there is nothing inherently ASB about creating an alternate history with a closed Mediterranean, for example, as long as you don't then presume everything else in human cultural evolution occured virtually as in OTL and ask a question like, "Would Rommel have been more successful if the Mediterranean was dry and the Germans could resupply him overland?" That's ASB. Speculating about the possible general direction of human settlement and cultural evolution of North Africa and Europe if the Med wasn't there is extremely speculative and butterfly-prone, but it is not automatically ASB if done right.
 
I've always consisdered that geological or evolutionary PoDs can be in this section in the same way that the quote from Ian suggested. To me it has always seemed cheap to automatically call these ASB. In the examples given, I'd say the ones about human tails and estrus are mostly ASB, because you are essentially no longer talking about human beings but speculating just to be speculating. I am much more lenient about geological PoDs. As Ian said, there is nothing inherently ASB about creating an alternate history with a closed Mediterranean, for example, as long as you don't then presume everything else in human cultural evolution occured virtually as in OTL and ask a question like, "Would Rommel have been more successful if the Mediterranean was dry and the Germans could resupply him overland?" That's ASB. Speculating about the possible general direction of human settlement and cultural evolution of North Africa and Europe if the Med wasn't there is extremely speculative and butterfly-prone, but it is not automatically ASB if done right.

Well, I view tails and estrus as more or less being equivalent to other branches of Homo Sapiens becoming the dominant rather than the subspecies that did so in OTL. (and so a *very* pre-1900 Divergence)

Rommel & Closed Med, absolutely ASB, though figuring out whether an Earthquake capable closing Gibraltar would kill everyone in Europe in 1943 would be interesting...
 
Hi, Zoomar.

I am much more lenient about geological PoDs. As Ian said, there is nothing inherently ASB about creating an alternate history with a closed Mediterranean, for example, as long as you don't then presume everything else in human cultural evolution occured virtually as in OTL...

I'm much less lenient. Geography has a very strong influence on ecology and evolution. You can't really expect to change geography without changing ecology and evolution. Since we really don't know much about the sensitivity of evolution to geography, I err on the side of skepticism: I basically assume that human evolution would be drastically different if any changes to geography are posited.

Also, the geological and meteorological processes behind geography are generally considered to be deterministic, which means asking, "What if geography changes?" is an entirely different matter from asking, "What if human behavior changes?" So, I tend to think of anything other than human behavioral PoD's as ASB.
 
would it be possible to have a section for biology/geological what ifs? I know it might be hard to determine whether or not something is ASB or not, but I think it would make sense, as the pre-1900 timeframe is too broad (IMHO) and most of the prehistoric PODs would be in the bio/geo section.
 
How do national forests relate to geology? One question on my homework says "How does the Tongass National Forest relate to geology?" Please help!

There's a "Tongass National Forest"? That's hilarious :D

But anyway, tree roots consolidate soil, thereby stabilising the sediment. and with certain rocks (limestone I think) that have joints and bedding planes, roots tend to travel along them as the path of least resistance, but their continued growth widens the cracks/bedding planes.
 
I've put in my two cents before, as I have already been quoted. I'll wrap up some points.

1. The non-existence of the human species in bio/geo PoD scenarios. This is not always true, obviously, with a recent or restricted PoD. And even if not, I think there should be some room allowed. If we want to explore a bio/geo PoD, and that bio/geo PoD doesn't explicitly and directly prevent the rise of humanity, then we should say ceteris paribus and run with it. As soon as there is a quantifiable effect on human development that's more than just the blowback from butterfly effects, it should be taken into account. Like in Ian's example, an island Africa PoD wouldn't necessarily prevent the rise of humanity (even though the butterfly logic says it might), but it will effect humanity's migration patterns, and those will have effects. A more larger example, if there is a continent in the Pacific then you can say that the odds of humanity rising unchanged is minute. But the odds are not zero, and it's the only scenario where we're not making up things whole cloth, so I don't see why we can't run with it until the direct effects on Polynesian or European explorers occur.

2. As for biological and geological deterministic and human behavior not, well, that can be argued. But it is true that these kinds of PoDs require a higher level of rigorous fact-checking and justification to retain plausibility and suspension of disbelief.

3. The only reason there's not a designated forum for these topics is server considerations, I believe. But I maintain that "What if there was no Panama Isthmus?" or something along those lines deserves a place here more than with scenarios that deal with supernatural or extraterrestrial intervention, often of the fictional kind.

4. In general, they tend to be ignored or accepted in practice. Lands of Red and Gold is a biological PoD, for instance. Due rigor and good writing will normally let you get away with anything that isn't blatantly impossible.
 
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