Where Does OTL Rank For Native Americans?

Where does OTL rank for Native Americans?

  • 1st percentile (Best Possible Outcome)

    Votes: 5 2.1%
  • 2nd-10th percentile

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • 11th-20th percentile

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • 21st-30th percentile

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • 31st-40th percentile

    Votes: 4 1.7%
  • 41st-50th percentile

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • 51st-60th percentile

    Votes: 11 4.6%
  • 61st-70th percentile

    Votes: 16 6.7%
  • 71st-80th percentile

    Votes: 40 16.8%
  • 81st-90th percentile

    Votes: 75 31.5%
  • 91st-99th percentile

    Votes: 58 24.4%
  • 100th percentile (Worst Possible Outcome)

    Votes: 18 7.6%

  • Total voters
    238
The idea in my country was that the native american was destined to extintion eventually, and that was the mainstream establishment opinion from the 1830s up to 1988.
The new constitution guaranteed many rights to native peoples and, surprisingly enough, the existence of the new laws gave a breath of life to the native communities, many of the younger generation reached up to their still living elders in order to revive their traditions. Many communities (i'll talk about the ones in the upper rio negro i know about) had stopped wearing their traditional ornaments, singing and dancing the old songs and dances during parties back in the fifties,switching to mainstream radio music. From 1988 on they got the elders to teach them again, and now their parties and festivals are full of feathers and body paint, and they all sing and dance to the old tunes the elders still remember.

So, at least in my country, i could see a full cultural genocide of the native peoples by 2030 with a PoD in the 1970s oil crisis.

Therefore, 99% percentile.
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
In my opinion outside of all Native Americans getting disease resistance and iron weapons from more sustainable viking colonization which allows them to defend themselves come 1492 (which is still doubtful)

Process works by iron tools and weapons spreading by trade, and then iron-working techniques by trade, and then diseases spreading and getting endemic-ized by not only longer-distance Viking traders but by the gradual spread out of useful domestic animals like cattle, pigs, sheep and horses and the unwelcome but unstoppable spread of pests like rats and mice? So that means Mesoamericans and Andeans have deadlier edged weapons and some cavalry by the time any Europeans come to their areas with an eye to conquest or plunder, and they have more immunity, or alternatively, the natives get wrecked by disease but invaders get attrited to debility by American-grown diseases novel to them.

he best case scenario for Native American Civilization is all of Europe developing a New World colonization process similar to 17th/18th century French Canada, where there is still European control, but at the same time a strong degree of coexistence and respect among cultures.
This is a great point for a variety of reasons. Historically, the West European Colonizers offered differed models of dealing with the natives. All spread devastating diseases, but they colonized with different intensity in terms of numbers and tightness of control over natives. It seems to me the French model, and the Dutch model, and (and the short-lived Swedish model) perhaps weighed lightest on the natives when compared with the Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, and English.

When thinking in alternate history terms of how East Asian, or Islamic, or other Middle East and North African or South Asians in the Americas would deal with the natives in comparison to the Europeans, it could help to compare their probable interactions with different regional Amerindian cultures with the spectrum of West European Colonizers.
 
Process works by iron tools and weapons spreading by trade, and then iron-working techniques by trade, and then diseases spreading and getting endemic-ized by not only longer-distance Viking traders but by the gradual spread out of useful domestic animals like cattle, pigs, sheep and horses and the unwelcome but unstoppable spread of pests like rats and mice? So that means Mesoamericans and Andeans have deadlier edged weapons and some cavalry by the time any Europeans come to their areas with an eye to conquest or plunder, and they have more immunity, or alternatively, the natives get wrecked by disease but invaders get attrited to debility by American-grown diseases novel to them.
Here's my issue with this though.

1. When it comes to Europeans giving Native Americans disease resistance, Scandinavians are the worst choice. In otl, they tended to have worse immune systems than other European subgroups. For example, when deployed in central Europe during the 30 Years War, Swedish soldiers had a much higher death rate from disease than German, French, or Italian soldiers.

2. It should be noted that by 1492, Portugal was already conquering iron age East Africa. Considering the amount of success the Portuguese, Dutch, and British had at conquering India, Ceylon, and the East Indies, I highly doubt a Iron Age Americas would still have the capability to truly resist Europe. It would certainly take longer than otl, but at the end of the day gunpowder beats iron.

For Native American Civilizations to have any chance, you need Ice Age period pods.
 
It's not enough and there's not enough survivors. The Vikings could have brought Smallpox for all we know - the issue is it kills too fast, a local area is devastated, but it doesn't spread beyond the local area.

You need prolonged contact with Europeans that are in contact with the home country, because that serves as a reservoir to keep reintroducing the disease. But that means an open avenue for other diseases, and local power vaccums for Europeans to spread into.
Oh okay interesting.
 
Here's my issue with this though.

1. When it comes to Europeans giving Native Americans disease resistance, Scandinavians are the worst choice. In otl, they tended to have worse immune systems than other European subgroups. For example, when deployed in central Europe during the 30 Years War, Swedish soldiers had a much higher death rate from disease than German, French, or Italian soldiers.

2. It should be noted that by 1492, Portugal was already conquering iron age East Africa. Considering the amount of success the Portuguese, Dutch, and British had at conquering India, Ceylon, and the East Indies, I highly doubt a Iron Age Americas would still have the capability to truly resist Europe. It would certainly take longer than otl, but at the end of the day gunpowder beats iron.
I'd argue that as bad as things got for Africa, they are still better off than the Native Americans. At least they remain the dominant ethnicity and culture in their homelands.
 
Absolute worse case scenario.

Like I don’t know what else you can call what happened to everything that happened to the natives ever since Columbus came down. Besides genocide, which all of this was.

Also how can seriously anyone vote “best case scenario” here?! Like hello????!??!!!?
 
Fairly poor, given the numerous missed potentials and opportunities for civilisational development. I'll list a few:
*Extinction of megafauna at the end of the last Ice Age--self explanatory POD
*Alaska was in regular contact with Siberia, but neither the Athabaskans nor the Inuit domesticated reindeer, unlike in the Old World Subarctic where reindeer domesticated occurred at least twice over two different subspecies.
*Polynesian contact was minimal--they did not settle the Galapagos where they could have formed a good trade route with the rest of the Pacific and transmit their own agriculture.
*Large states collapsed from bad luck and bad policy--Aztecs and Inca are the most famous, but the Purepecha certainly had a chance too, possibly an even better one given their position and government structure. I think there's a real chance that an unsuccessful Spanish conquest creates a Mexico+Central America+Andes that resembles the East Indies in terms of polities and intrigue, where Europeans are dominant but only control certain trading posts and coastal areas.
*The Vikings did not introduce the few diseases that could plausibly survive the trip across the sea like chickenpox/shingles, mumps, and whooping cough. This would have altered indigenous practices of dealing with epidemic disease and led to at least some immunity against diseases that impacted fertility/infant mortality as well as killed plenty in their own right (chickenpox in adults can be very dangerous and deadly).
*Better use of irrigation, crop rotation, fertiliser, and insecticide (in this case especially nicotine from tobacco farming). Soil exhaustion and salination of the land devastated centers like Cahokia and the Hohokam civilisation not so long before the arrival of Europeans. Agricultural pests seriously harmed farming among the Iroquoians and is why they moved their villages every generation or so and more importantly hindered continued population growth, but they used only minimal techniques of preventing this and did not use tobacco as an insecticide. In the Pacific Northwest, although potatoes had been grown by Amerindians since the late 18th century, they were reluctant to incorporate slash and burn agriculture and other techniques to improve the yield of their crop due to the effort it would take and no doubt cultural concerns.
*Sweathouses appear to be very bad for handling introduced diseases like influenza, smallpox, and especially malaria--if there had been earlier epidemic diseases like chickenpox, then sweathouses may have been discouraged in certain cases. This would save a significant number of Amerindians in northern California, Oregon, and Washington who suffered from a major malaria epidemic in the 1830s which utterly destroyed some of the densest populations on the West Coast (much to the delight of some white settlers who feared it might be impossible to seize their lands).

I believe under a native state, disease would not have been as severe over time (although far worse than the Black Death) and they could have successfully either modernised or ended up akin to those states of India, Southeast Asia, and Africa subdued by Europeans where despite the hardships of colonialism, the native culture would have persisted and there would not have been near-total replacement. It should be noted that in many areas (the Gulf Coast, Atlantic Mesoamerica, Central America, Brazil, etc.) there would be an inevitable influx of African slaves so formation of Miskito-like ethnic groups and even states is likely, although I could just as easily imagine a rich native ruler importing his own African slaves to replace peasants who have died off. Because of population density, Mesoamerica and the Andes are most likely for this, and I'd love to read a TL of how a Southeast Asia/India-style colonised alt-Mexico or alt-Peru would function.
Survivors do tend to carry immunity. Maybe if it was progressive, ie one after another instead of all at once. If smallpox burned through America in intervals (The Vikings bring it, then the Malians, then the Spanish) the mortality lowers each time. You just need to up the amount of pre-Columbian contact form 1 to something big like 11 with enough time in between. Crops can help with rebound time. The population would wax and wane but won't die as much with Columbian contact.
Most of the New World does not have the population density to sustain endemic smallpox, ergo it becomes like Iceland which also did not have endemic smallpox for a few centuries. And smallpox is not the only disease given there are a host of others. The Vikings did not have smallpox, at least not in Iceland.
Another to consider is why can't a disease like cocolitzi ravage the Old World I wonder.
Because cocolitzi was very likely an Old World disease. It was a specific strain of enteric/paratyphoid fever that due to the conditions in Mexico in the 16th century exploded in prevelance and especially lethality.
Absolute worse case scenario.

Like I don’t know what else you can call what happened to everything that happened to the natives ever since Columbus came down. Besides genocide, which all of this was.

Also how can seriously anyone vote “best case scenario” here?! Like hello????!??!!!?
It wasn't entirely genocide because the deaths of people from disease who had never even seen a non-Amerindian person cannot possibly be genocide. And it gets really hazy when you have Amerindians themselves committing genocidal acts on other Amerindians because they had better access to weapons and resources. And it's pretty clear it could have been much, much worse since the rhetoric of 19th century "Indian fighters" suggests they'd have rather straight up killed all of them rather than the government's solution of pretending to honour treaties only to the degree they could confine them on inferior lands and forget about them.
 

Crazy Boris

Banned
Did some thinking and here’s how I would rate OTL on the level of various tribes. I admit my knowledge is incomplete, so if anyone has their own ratings for these (and it’s also 4 AM so my thinker may not be in mint condition as I write this), feel free to step in and give your own thoughts, as well as add any you think you can confidently give a score to. I’m curious to see how the Cree and Blackfoot would rank, if anyone wants to give those a go.

Inuit: 75-80. Less impacted overall by disease via virtue of isolation and sparse population, but when it came for the attempts to integrate them into wider society, it really hit hard, given that it’s hard to play a part in a global interconnected economy when the region you live in barely has enough resources on hand to sustain yourself, let alone a surplus to trade, so you’re basically trapped in poverty.

Wyandot: around 85. When your arch-rivals get the backing of a powerful foreign nation and become strong enough to totally conquer and displace you relatively fast, it’s not pleasant.

Iroquois: 70. Managed to become a huge regional power, only for it to slowly be chipped away before a final death knell for full sovereignty after US independence. Lasting legacy and influence bumps them up a bit.

Beothuk: 99. It’s hard to get much worse than extinction, but the fact they have a pretty strong legacy as a symbol of Newfoundland saves them from a 100 rating.

Crow: 68. Siding with the United States against their traditional enemies was a smart move, and gave them at least a slightly more favorable treatment, but at the end of the day they still suffered a lot of the same fates as those rivals.

Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Creek: 80. Making up part of the “Five Civilized Tribes” gave these ones a bit more leeway and prestige than their contemporaries, but it arguably also made them more prominent targets by expansionists, resulting in their forced removal to Oklahoma, but once there they managed to keep considerable autonomy into the 20th century.

Seminole: 83. The Seminole are kind of hard to rank given that they wouldn’t exist without colonization. As one of the “Five Civilized Tribes”, I used that score as a base here, but added some to it to account for the Seminole Wars.

Guanahatabey: 100. These guys were kinda screwed even before colonization. Give it another century and the Taino probably would have swallowed what was left of them.

Taino: 95. There may not be any full-blooded Taino left, but Taino identity is undergoing a bit of a revival in the Caribbean and they left a lasting cultural impact. Extinction with a legacy is better than extinction and obscurity.

Quechua and Aymara: 50. Probably the best off of all of them, still around in huge numbers with languages and cultures alive and well. Given how dominant they were in the Inca Empire and how the Spanish administration straight up encouraged the use of Quechua up until the late 18th century, it makes sense they’d end up on top, but I still feel I can’t go any better than 50.

Mapuche: 60. On the plus side, they did manage to spread influence into Patagonia (albeit to the detriment of the tribes there, but from the Mapuche perspective it’s a positive), and holding out against Inca, Spanish, and Chilean/Argentine conquest for centuries is no small feat, but, that resilience also made them targets when their territories finally did fall to foreign domination. But, their language and culture is still alive and well and they have a well-deserved legacy as great warriors, which bumps them up.

Selk’nam: 99. Literally hunted to near extinction. thankfully, some survived, but the damage is so extreme it would be a miracle to see them survive as a people to the end of the century.
 
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It depends on what Native Americans you're talking about but, on average, OTL is one of the worst possible outcomes for them; things could've been much better, with PODs as far back as them not hunting whole useful species to extinction (arguably, Aboriginal Australians fell into this trap as well, plus turning the Outback into, well, the Outback through slash and burn agriculture); the fact that the Mesoamerican empires had a lot of internal enemies by the time the Spanish came, and that the conflict between crown and settlers in North America was won by the side that wanted to expand westwards at all cost sure didn't help, either.

IMO, some shipwrecked Norsemen dying shortly after infecting some of the locals is something that would've improved the chances of the northern portion of the continent, since the various polities would've had enough time to bounce back while retaining disease immunity (for the southern third of the continent, maybe you can have the legend about Malian expeditions actually be true, albeit as a failed endeavour), but horses and better sailing technology would've helped even more, with cultural and technological exchanges.

It's a fucking travesty, that we never had an incredibly prosperous empire spanning the whole Mississippi basin, held together by fast boats sailing up and down the river network, and that civilizations as advanced as those of the Andes and Mesoamerica still had a hard cap on what they could do, given the lack of some vital resources. I also want Mapuche chiefs riding terror birds into battle. :p
 
So want Mapuche chiefs riding terror birds into battle. :p

I think having Mesoamerican Rulers meeting Cortez's horse cavalry with Columbian Mammoth Cavalry is cooler and SO much more realistic (only on the borderlands of ASB), but that's just me.
 
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I'd argue that as bad as things got for Africa, they are still better off than the Native Americans. At least they remain the dominant ethnicity and culture in their homelands.
So would you rather be living in 21st century Somalia today or living in a 21st century Native American reservation?

Also I think I might choose death by small pox or American bullet to the head instead of two months chained on the floor of a slave ship followed by 20 years of oppression.

Don't quote me on this but I think I read that in many regions of Africa up to 40% of the population was enslaved while a significant percentage of deaths in Africa from 1500-1800 were from warfare fueled by the Slave Trade.
 
So what exactly is the best case scenario for Native Americans? The Old World had a lot going for it in comparison to the New World (horses, disease resistance, more sophisticated trade networks, etc.). A New World peoples ending up better than the Old World peoples requires so many pods that it's borderline ASB, meaning at the end of the day, a best case scenario for the Native Americans still has Native American Civilization being oppressed/destroyed in some form or another.


In my opinion outside of all Native Americans getting disease resistance and iron weapons from more sustainable viking colonization which allows them to defend themselves come 1492 (which is still doubtful), the best case scenario for Native American Civilization is all of Europe developing a New World colonization process similar to 17th/18th century French Canada, where there is still European control, but at the same time a strong degree of coexistence and respect among cultures.
If they got domestic animals from the Polynesians (earlier Polynesian expansion than OTL) they could have developed their own plagues, at which point the Old World runs into just as many problems as the New World.
 
Don't quote me on this but I think I read that in many regions of Africa up to 40% of the population was enslaved while a significant percentage of deaths in Africa from 1500-1800 were from warfare fueled by the Slave Trade.
True. The sort of slavery in Africa was (and still is) very rarely the sort of brutal plantation slavery found in the Americas, but slaves were liable to be sold to foreign slave traders and shipped overseas, if not captured in warfare. And thanks to that warfare and slave trade the population of Africa remained stagnant from the 16th to mid-19th century.
If they got domestic animals from the Polynesians (earlier Polynesian expansion than OTL) they could have developed their own plagues, at which point the Old World runs into just as many problems as the New World.
I find it interesting neither turkeys nor Muscovy ducks produced New World-exclusive influenza lineages, although I suppose it wouldn't be too much worse on Old World populations than actual influenza pandemics of the Early Modern era (even if it would disproportionately kill non-natives). Maybe mix it with the influenza carried by seals since some studies suggest tuberculosis in pre-contact South America comes from seals.
 
They're not extinct, so not the worst possible outcome, and some culture survives, as well as blood - if we count the very large Mestizo population as Hispanicized natives, demographically they're not doing too bad either. So they aren't moribound either and "extinct in advance" (what will probably happen to the various scattered remnant groups across the world in the near-to-medium term future), so it's not really 2nd worst outcome. So, I'd say 3rd worst outcome.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
If they got domestic animals from the Polynesians (earlier Polynesian expansion than OTL) they could have developed their own plagues, at which point the Old World runs into just as many problems as the New World.

So that works by skipping the "Polynesian expansion pause" -having the Polynesians reach PEru and maybe the Central American isthmus about 1000 years before Columbus and bringing pigs and chickens and taro (and bananas?, and sweet potatoes?) to the Americas? That gives the population of the America's "retaliatory plagues" like the Africans?

How much would Polynesian genomes have replaced Amerindian?
 
So that works by skipping the "Polynesian expansion pause" -having the Polynesians reach Peru and maybe the Central American isthmus about 1000 years before Columbus and bringing pigs and chickens and taro (and bananas?, and sweet potatoes?) to the Americas? That gives the population of the America's "retaliatory plagues" like the Africans?

How much would Polynesian genomes have replaced Amerindian?
Depends on how quickly they arrive. If they only arrive a few hundred at a time and irregularly enough for the Natives to bounce back every time they spread disease they could easily remain a minority.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Depends on how quickly they arrive. If they only arrive a few hundred at a time and irregularly enough for the Natives to bounce back every time they spread disease they could easily remain a minority.
Would that still allow their domestic high-protein animals and domestic plants , and hopefully boating technology for intra-coastal trade to still permeate throughout the hemisphere and "do it's thing" of toughening up the hemiphere? All of it would still leave them stone age (but neolithic) in tech.
 
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