Where did all the Big Timelines go?

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fi11222

Banned
King of the Uzbeks said:
And honestly it's rather disturbing that you find a TL praising jew killing that interesting.
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I don't. What I am saying is that if we want to have interesting TLs we must err on the side of permissiveness. I would not be interested in such a TL but I surely would be interested to read TLs from many people who have been banned from this forum. If you want these to stay, you have to ban only those who obviously are not interested in AH, like someone who would start a TL entitled "Fuck Niggers and Jews" and the first post would contain just the words "fuck fuck fuck." Yes, such a person should be banned.

Appart from things of that kind, nothing should get you banned, even ad hominem attacks or holocaust denial. Unles you want mediocrity to rule.
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

Honestly, debating things like this instead of reading and commenting on TLs is probably the #1 reason they fail. The mods' position on banning isn't likely to change, so debating it is worthless. Your time is better spent positively contributing to what people are creating for the community.

- BNC
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Banned
Out of the 30 front page threads right now, 10 are timelines. Of the remaining 20, we have 19 discussion threads about AH subjects, which are just as valid as timelines (this being the AH discussion board and all). The one exception is... this thread. Basically, I think this whole problem is imagined. The mythical halcyon days when virtually all front page threads were TLs are probabably nothing but nostalgic make-belief. Maybe there was such a high point a decade ago, when I wasn't here yet, but ever since I've been visiting this forum, I have perceived the TL-to-discussion ratio as remaining pretty much the same.

On the other hand, even this thread has evident value, even if it's about a largely imagined issue, since it allows writers to explain what motivates or discourages them from starting and/or continuing a TL.
 

Geordie

fi11222 said:
I don't. What I am saying is that if we want to have interesting TLs we must err on the side of permissiveness. I would not be interested in such a TL but I surely would be interested to read TLs from many people who have been banned from this forum. If you want these to stay, you have to ban only those who obviously are not interested in AH, like someone who would start a TL entitled "Fuck Niggers and Jews" and the first post would contain just the words "fuck fuck fuck." Yes, such a person should be banned.

Appart from things of that kind, nothing should get you banned, even ad hominem attacks or holocaust denial. Unles you want mediocrity to rule.
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I couldn't disagree with you more if you tried.

"Err on the side of permissiveness" raised my eyebrows, but turning a blind eye to holocaust denial? Allowing ad hominem attacks in the name of creativity? Sod that.

Giving more creative members carte blanche is a dreadful idea. Giving all members the same freedom is more egalitarian, but equally bad.

There are some very good writers on here. Some have taken part in this very thread, and dismissing them as mediocre is insulting.
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

fi11222 said:
Not always. Some people quit their jobs to write.
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To write novels, or maybe after they have retired. Sticking stuff on the internet is different, you can't live off of it (granted there are those famous youtube people and stuff, but I highly doubt anyone on this site is famous enough to live off a TL alone)

- BNC
 

fi11222

Banned
Kick
Geordie said:
I couldn't disagree with you more if you tried.

"Err on the side of permissiveness" raised my eyebrows, but turning a blind eye to holocaust denial? Allowing ad hominem attacks in the name of creativity? Sod that.

Giving more creative members carte blanche is a dreadful idea. Giving all members the same freedom is more egalitarian, but equally bad.

There are some very good writers on here. Some have taken part in this very thread, and dismissing them as mediocre is insulting.
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This is the perfect example of what is killing creativity on this forum, and also destroying freedom of speech in the society at large.

What is wrong with allowing holocaust denial or ad hominem attacks on an AH forum? Are people going to die? Is the sky going to fall on our heads?

This is a small corner of the web dedicated to a very specific hobby. Who cares if a few crackposts rant about their fetishes here? Creativity is messy and creative people are messy. They sometimes lose their marbles and will attack other in a virulent and nasty manner. What is wrong with that? Are the people who find themselves on the reciving end of such attacks going to be scarred for life? Come on. Aren't we all adults?

If you insist on straight laced perfect correctness in manners on the model of a victorian salon, what are you going to get? The same kind of things you got in victorian salons: platitudes. Yes, mediocrity.

It is a well known fact that truth is often insulting. And that is why truth is rarely welcome in social situations. But a forum dedicated to AH should be an exception. It should be a place where crackpots and eccentrics are alowed to congregate and indulge their obessions without fear of the thought police. This is how good litterature in general is made and AH in particular.
 

fi11222

Banned
BiteNibbleChomp said:
To write novels, or maybe after they have retired. Sticking stuff on the internet is different, you can't live off of it (granted there are those famous youtube people and stuff, but I highly doubt anyone on this site is famous enough to live off a TL alone)
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No, but it can be a start. If you consider doing serious writing, this kind of forum is exactly the right sort of place to do some trial and error in order to learn before you embark on something more serious. This is exactly how the best TLs have been created in the past.
 
Daeres

Daeres

Well "we should allow holocaust denial timelines because freedom of speech" wasn't how I expected this thread to go.

To add to the chorus, hiatuses to my timelines on here are mostly due to real life or temporary burn out. I'm not part of a generation that's getting more free time the older I get, I had way more time and mental energy for writing alternate history when I was younger but that's not when I was writing. I've had to carve out creative time and energy just for making maps, and that's such a time sink I can no longer make all of those entirely gratis. I can't speak for all the forum's writers but my guess is a lot of us don't have the kind of economic security you would have expected 8 years ago, and that doesn't help when the burn out fairy pays a visit or when you're having to budget time.

So far as I'm aware this forum would never have idly watched a Jew bashing or holocaust denying timeline, this is not a recent development in moderation policy or part of a new breakdown in freedom of speech. If this forum had permitted that kind of timeline, or any fundamentally bigoted timeline of that nature, then I can assure you a great deal of us would never have joined this community in the first place. Some of us are a bit more adult than to limit our definitions of bigoted content to slurring like a 2009 CoD player of 14 who just discovered voice chat.
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Banned
fi11222 said:
What is wrong with allowing holocaust denial or ad hominem attacks on an AH forum? Are people going to die? Is the sky going to fall on our heads?
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It makes discussions rather unpleasant, for one. Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of free speech, but an internet forum - much like most physical debating halls - will do well to have some code of conduct. Otherwise things soon devolve into shouting matches, and that drives out good people.

More importantly: AH.com is not the public space. It's owned, as far as I'm aware, by Ian. That essentially makes all users his guests, subject to what rules he finds desirable. If you disagree with him on points too fundamental for you to acquiesce, you can - to put it crudely - start your own forum. (And let it be noted: I'm opposed to any and all limitations on free speech in the public space; this is not a call for censorship laws in general. It's the simple observation that whoever owns this site makes the rules, and those who use it need to live by them.)

In any case, I don't think that "you're not allowed to deny the holocaust here" is in any way influential in stopping the creation of any worth-while timelines. And if you want to petition a change to the board's rules, you should probably take it to the 'Help' subforum (I think).
 

William Adelin

Banned
BiteNibbleChomp said:
I've had enough of this. The reasons against allowing 'nasty attacks' etc should be obvious. Reported.

- BNC
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For breaking which rule, though? I don't agree with him, but it's not like what he said was actionable. Don't try to shut down a debate just because you don't like what's being said, it means your argument's too weak or you don't have one.

Also from what I know of Ian and the mods by now, it seems as though smugly claiming you've reported someone is probably looked down upon.
 
drewmcgunn

drewmcgunn

Opinions are swinging pretty wildly now in this thread.

@fi11222 I think your view regarding allowing ad hominim attacks is wrong, because these kind of attacks breed incivility on the forum, and that degrades the quality of the forum, which works against all of our desires for quality time lines.

When it comes to cracks like Holocaust deniers, I don't particularly think the mods should automatically ban them, but OTOH, they usually give actionable reasons (see above about ad hominim) that result in getting themselves banned. It's not that I think that they need to have their views aired, because, frankly they don't. But, I've noticed a trend by the mods to occasionally play thought police with views that fall outside of the mod's worldview, and at times, its a moving goal post, as I see it. I would prefer the Mods err on the side of caution when it comes to making a determination to ban someone for airing views that fall so far outside the mainstream. But, that's simply one person's opinion. But that's probably a debate for a different threat on a different sub-forum.

@BiteNibbleChomp, I don't mean to offend you, but I haven't decided if I found your comment to be an effort to incite or a form of virtue signaling to the mods, but either way, I thought it unnecessary. Don't misunderstand me, if you found @fi11222's post to be offensive, please report him, but I found it to be a rather tacky breach of forum protocols to come back at the poster and say it.

If my expression of my views regarding your comment offends you, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.

BiteNibbleChomp said:
I've had enough of this. The reasons against allowing 'nasty attacks' etc should be obvious. Reported.

- BNC
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BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

drewmc2001 said:
I found it to be a rather tacky breach of forum protocols to come back at the poster and say it.

If my expression of my views regarding your comment offends you, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.
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That's fair enough. I appreciate that you cleared this up. Let's just move on.

- BNC
 
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