When you Wish Upon a Frog (Book II of the Jim Henson at Disney saga)

[Geekhis Khan]

Yes, but I meant more in a sense of someone dying by random happenstance like a car crash or food poisoning.

Killing someone who lived iOTL is always a bit of a careful thing to consider. I mean, it's one thing to save someone, but another to play Grim Reaper. So I have actually been kicking around ideas, but it's a weird and morbid thing to consider unless an obvious potential butterfly occurs (e.g. someone who uses a lot of drugs but has somehow never OD'ed).

So far those who died iTTL who didn't iOTL include:

• MJ: embolism following elective surgery exacerbated by unlisted drugs
• Corey Haim (OD) and Corey Feldman (apparent accident)
• John Kricfalusi (suicide)

So I'll see what I can do...you bloodthirsty bastard!

Who's the alternate Russian President here, and a 1989 final girl? Mind explaining?

USR president remains Gorby.

Final Girl was Joss Whedon's 1989 deconstructive "Smart Slasher" starring Rhonda the Immortal Waitress, an idea that evolved into Buffy iOTL. Read about it in the "Death of the Slasher" entry on Slasher films.

Indeed, for all we know 9/11 could might well be averted if Gore's presidency somehow manages to wrangle the different intelligence agencies to communicate with each other. But it's these butterflies that make this timeline so interesting.

Probably the big thing that could change everything is if Disney does not lobby for a longer copyright law. Depends on how Jim felt about things lapsing into the public domain though...

There's also the very significant probability it won't happen at all. The differences in international relations could mean that Bin La-dee-dah choses a different target, tactic, country... or doesn't attack at all. Gore has 4-8 years to change how the US deal with western Asia which might entirely change how Bin Ladarussiancar chooses to poke the American bear. I don't know enough about the proximate causes of why they planned the hijackings the way they did to come down one way or the other, but I would never consider it a 'fixed event' in a timeline, even one that has (ostensibly) nothing to do with international relations, aversion of Flight 123 crash being a notable butterfly already.

I've seriously been looking into things. They're amazingly convoluted. On one hand, the proximate causes are changed, but on the other hand the ultimate causes (i.e. US policy on Israel and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979) have not. Bin Laden was the Poster Child for a larger network, so assuming that he decides to go into the family business instead, or catches an RPG round in 1988, you still have folks like Mullah Omar and such more than happy to carry out the fight. And Omar was arguably even crazier and more aggressive than Bin Laden.

As of right now in the timeline, Afghanistan is falling into civil war as the Taliban, a name meaning "students" and made up of radicalized child refugees who fled Afghanistan for Pakistan in '79 and literally grew up indoctrinated by ultraconservative mullahs, invades with support from Pakistani Intelligence, who naively believe them to be a stabilizing force.

Many of the elements that led to it are already in place, and as per iOTL there have already been ongoing plans for taking terrorism to the US both in the middle east and domestically.

As for why the World Trade Center: 1) it's an actual strategic target (financial), 2) it's an iconic part of the NYC skyline, so the symbolic value is huge, and 3) the potential body count is huge.

So, yea, still really trying to figure out what to do here. 9/11 itself is not a "fixed point", but something is going to be attempted at some point. I'm just trying to figure out what and when.

Yeesh this is a morbid post! Talk about playing Grim Reaper. 😬

Copyright aside, I'm pretty sure Disney have trademarked most or all of their characters. Trademarks, as I (admittedly limitedly) understand, can be renewed in a way copyrights theoretically can't, and they would have to be nuts to let their trademarks lapse. The endless extensions of copyright are just another line of defense.

Yep, as others mentioned Winnie the Pooh the original story and characters, are now Public Domain, but the Disney Trademarks, specifically the look of Pooh and Piglet et al from the Disney interpretation of Winnie the Pooh, remain under Trademark. So your story about Pooh and Piglet teaming up with Dorothy and battling the Wicked Witch of the West can go ahead and get published as planned, just as long as Pooh and Piglet don't overtly resemble their Disney versions and Dorothy's slippers are any color but "ruby".

@Geekhis Khan
How long ago did Disney and MGM hook up? Also, did MGM end up selling off their pre-1986 material?

Round about 1986 Turner (per OTL) bought up MGM and UA and everything with them from Tracinda, but after swallowing CBS iTTL that was too big of a gulp. Turner sold a lot of it off (and sold UA back to Tracinda) and Disney grabbed the MGM brand and park rights while Turner, Disney, and Dodi Fayed split the pre-1986 MGM film rights three ways. It's posted I believe in the News section for 1986.

Is it too late to suggest bringing this sort of writing back for Shrek! merchandise?

Eh, it might be too late to put this kind of stuff in an official post, but I won't be surprised if it's actually part of Shrek's marketing scheme. I mean, Jim is literally the head creative officer at Disney.

No formal post, but I can totally see that twisted Henson humor making its way into ads for Shrek and others. You can consider that Canon.

 

[TheKennedyMachine.]

John Kricfalusi

John Kricfalusi is dead POGGGGGG

 

[Neoteros]

A friend of mine that doesn't have an account is following this TL regardless (he's very much into old school animation) and he had a few questions:

+ he was wondering whether Swat Kats will be a thing or not, since IRL it got cancelled.

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

So I'll see what I can do...you bloodthirsty bastard😋

I'm just asking 😂

I'm here for the chaos!

As for why the World Trade Center: 1) it's an actual strategic target (financial), 2) it's an iconic part of the NYC skyline, so the symbolic value is huge, and 3) the potential body count is huge.

Not only inside the building, but also outside of it aswell, like EMT and firemen and such dying in the line of duty.

All these people surviving would have huge ramifications for the US and beyond.

 

[GrahamB]

They're amazingly convoluted.

That's putting it mildly. The bane of speculative history is how everything turns out to be convoluted to some extent unless there's a convenient narrative provided by historiography to lean on. It's a major reason I've not done a timeline myself (that and chronic procrastination), every time I end up down the rabbit hole and puzzle myself into inaction.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

I can understand companies protecting the copyrights regarding their IP. I just hope that the concept of Fair Use isn't trampled like it is in OTL. Anything to keep from going down the road that leads to, for instance, Youtube being so unfriendly to creators.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

A friend of mine that doesn't have an account is following this TL regardless (he's very much into old school animation) and he had a few questions:

View attachment 710728

+ he was wondering whether Swat Kats will be a thing or not, since IRL it got cancelled.

Ok, I'll try to address, but your friend has some misconceptions here. "CN" still exists under a different name. It was born as Cartoon TV and then recently rebranded as Cartoon City (officially "Columbia Cartoon City" with a logo of three stacked 3-D Cs that look like a building). It is still on Basic Cable and not sure why your friend thinks that it isn't. Turner owns both CC and HB as per OTL. Much of the "Cartoon Cartoons" of OTL will either appear or not (some in different forms) and I will cover this in a future post. I don't really have the time to go into each and every cartoon on every channel without this TL becoming a full-time job, but since Turner owns CBS and CC [TTL CN] then I'd assume he'd push HB shows for CBS. Don Oriolo still owns Felix so he could take it anywhere. I'll think about Felix, particularly as tomorrow's post briefly name-drops him. Betty Boop came up earlier and has a modernized but "back to her risque original" TV series that was moderately successful (look for the "In the Shadow of the Mouse" posts). No thoughts yet on Swat Cats.

 

[Ogrebear]

Lots of catching up!

Schindler- for Xmas 92? Wow that's a gut punch of an Xmas movie. I bet Neeson acted his heart out.

Shame about the Malcolm X mess, but I am glad Spike and Steve where able to take some of the cash and do rebuilding in Brooklyn.

The Academy needs a kick up the ass here.

Nice work again Bernie.

Congratz to Jim for becoming Acting Disney Chairman, Dick Nunis to Acting President, and Roy Disney as Acting President of Walt Disney Studios.

"the CEO was the “Commander in Chief” of all internal Disney operations while the Chairman was the “Secretary of State” tasked with addressing “outside entities”. The CEO “ran the company” and the Chairman was “the face of the company” with both the shareholders and the public at large. " - I do wonder if other companies might benefit from this sort of arrangement?

Very glad The Bamboo Princess found its audience in America, I did wonder if it would struggle on mainstream.

Any chance of some full Queen mayhem for the soundtrack of Little Mermaid- esp an Usula number?

Kimba the White Lion falls through but instead the get the Lion King with Belafonte's music. Sound be Epic. Nice there is a hat tip to Tezuka.

Incredible, fantastic Marvel news there- looking forward to the Wheldon quips and snipes. Just keep him away from actors please.

Warner vs Disney in full effect. I guess Amalgam Comics is not happening!

Wow River Phoenix made it, I was almost convinced he would not. Good Jim was there.

Now, we just need someone (Spielberg, Bernie?) to get Jim to break out of his workaholic patterns before he damages himself.

More catching still to do, but nice work @Geekhis Khan

 

[ajm8888]

Well the 1990s had a darkness to them we forget.

While the mob was dying in the United States, the cartels of Mexico are starting down their path of violence and the Mexican economic miracle of the early 1990s may implode like it did in our world. The many Mexican drug wars will soon begin.

Columbia is probably on fire thanks to Pablo Escobar escaping La Cathdral. While the Cali Cartel is staying in the shadows helping to bring down Escobar. Cali financed Los Pepes

China while more stable has problems many in Hong Kong may leave for the UK, America, or elsewhere.

Russia is dealing with oligarchs and the Mafiya, Chechnya won’t help.

Korea will face the problems of meeting Olympics deadlines in 1988 with numerous building disasters, Sampoong department store collapse being the most Famous.

Japan is is in the beginning of the “Lost Decades” and we’ll see the rise of cults, the Yakuza still staying strong and weakening of corporate Japan. The Yakuza in Japan will see completion from Chinese and Filipino gangs and as government cracks down things will be harder to control in regards to crime.

As for America... I am not sure what the 1994 election will look like for the midterms but it depends on Gore and the economy. And how well the GOP run ads against Gore.

 

[Denliner]

Killing someone who lived iOTL is always a bit of a careful thing to consider. I mean, it's one thing to save someone, but another to play Grim Reaper. So I have actually been kicking around ideas, but it's a weird and morbid thing to consider unless an obvious potential butterfly occurs (e.g. someone who uses a lot of drugs but has somehow never OD'ed).

I'd tread lightly on killing someone that survives OTL if they don't have a preexisting condition, since they could go on to do some production or event in the future. But then again, I guess it'd be too unrealistic if a significant amount of people survive where they did not OTL like Princess Diana.

Geez...what a conundrum. Reminds me of that ATLA scene:

So, yea, still really trying to figure out what to do here. 9/11 itself is not a "fixed point", but something is going to be attempted at some point. I'm just trying to figure out what and when.

I'm kinda hoping that we don't see bin Laden as an active jihadist ITTL (perhaps due to him dying or serving as a Saudi benefactor) and have someone else take up the reins like Mullah Omar and a much more dangerous Taliban.

As for the event itself, I'd say that something like 9/11 could definitely happen due to the world's lax airport security at the time, but it's literally up in the cards whether it will be the same or not. I can totally believe a scenario where the Twin Towers survives but the Pentagon or even the White House is seriously damaged by the collision.

I'll trust your judgement/account of these events but regardless it will be just as impactful and damaging to the world as OTL was.

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

Warner vs Disney in full effect. I guess Amalgam Comics is not happening!

Why? Were DC and Marvel super friendly with each other OTL? Or has everyone forgotten that Amalgam Comics come out of the whole Marvel vs. DC/DC vs. Marvel collaboration?

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

Saving the WTC probably involves a complete miss (e.g. Al Qaeda hits Congress and the Pentagon first, Flights 11 and 175 are grounded or forced down); the towers' load-bearing columns are all on the outside and vulnerable to impact.

 

[Winchester]

I'd tread lightly on killing someone that survives OTL if they don't have a preexisting condition, since they could go on to do some production or event in the future. But then again, I guess it'd be too unrealistic if a significant amount of people survive where they did not OTL like Princess Diana.

"Being a celebrity" is pretty much all the pre-existing condition needed though.

Even the ones that *don't* drink, do drugs, engage in unsafe sex, develop eating disorders trying to maintain their figure, have skeletons in the closet that might come out and ruin them over night, drive very fast because they can, make enemies of violent gangs, or any of the other dumb lifestyle choices one might make when one has enough money, are still at risk of random insane stalkers or being chased to death by paparazzi (for celebrity only dumb shit); or random dumb accidents, like being in a plane crash,
or getting crushed by their own car because they forgot the handbrake (or it didn't work), for stuff that happened to celebrities that might happen to anyone.

 

[jpj1421]

I suppose if one wanted to be morbid, and mull it over you could look through all of the celebrities that had near misses and roll a die or something. The one that immediately sprung to mind Gary Busey nearly died when he was flung from his motorcycle while not wearing a helmet...he's incredibly lucky he didn't die in that accident and without that near miss he'd likely keep doing so until he either gets in a horrible accident or California passes a helmet law. I imagine everyone has someone they are thinking of in the same regard and the whole matter is rather grim.

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

Why? Were DC and Marvel super friendly with each other OTL? Or has everyone forgotten that Amalgam Comics come out of the whole Marvel vs. DC/DC vs. Marvel collaboration?

I think it's because of the movies.

Like why would you create an event that mixes your characters together when people who have seen your movie might try to get into the comic afterwards. You know corporate synergy and all that.

Like how Marvel gave Spider-Man organic web-shooters for a while to match the Raimi movies.

DC vs. Marvel is probably still on the horizon and is probably a bigger deal ITTL since they're also fighting on the big screen.

Btw would it be unrealistic to expect some crossovers in the movies? Like the Universal Monsters franchise layed the foundation in the 30s and Comics themselves already have a connected universe so it's not a big stretch to imagine that someone could have the idea to combine the two.

Especially if you want to get ahead of the competition

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

I think it's because of the movies.

Like why would you create an event that mixes your characters together when people who have seen your movie might try to get into the comic afterwards. You know corporate synergy and all that.

Comics and movies are two separate things, and they should remain separate. Plus the Cinematic Universes of both may be dead by 1996/1997.

 

[Pesterfield]

Russia is dealing with oligarchs and the Mafiya, Chechnya won’t help.

Are they, wouldn't the better end to the Cold War change some of that?

 

[Sunflare2k5]

Comics and movies are two separate things, and they should remain separate. Plus the Cinematic Universes of both may be dead by 1996/1997.

We got Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man back in 1976, because of a suggestion that DC and Marvel team up for a movie. But since both companies were already working on films, they published the story instead.

But what makes you think the Cinematic Universes would be gone so soon?

 

[ajm8888]

Are they, wouldn't the better end to the Cold War change some of that?

Well the Mafiya was around before so they’ll find a niche

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

But what makes you think the Cinematic Universes would be gone so soon?

And what makes you think that they'll last as long as OTL?

We got Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man back in 1976, because of a suggestion that DC and Marvel team up for a movie. But since both companies were already working on films, they published the story instead.

And this just proves my point that any cinematic universe will not always affect comics.