I did not know of the Quayle thing and I just picked him at random. This will fuel in-universe conspiracies about Fischbach’s death and could lead to silliness we saw with the Clintons in OTL (stopping there). More likely if there is a conspiracy it was Kovalenko who was behind it. Though Fischbach could have died from a previously unknown and undiagnosed health condition.
When you Wish Upon a Frog (Book II of the Jim Henson at Disney saga)
- Thread starter Geekhis Khan
- Start date
- Status
Can't wait to see if this is a speedbump for Quayle's campaign or not. And yeah, I bet there are a ton of conspiracy theories about it, regarding that Quayle ordered him dead to cover up embrassment.
Election 2000 Live Coverage
Gephardt, Richards win 2000 Election
Quayle Concedes: “A hard fought campaign”
Dems gain 2 seats in Senate, 3 in House
Reform and “Stripebacks” lose ground, but remain a factor
The Washington Post, November 8th, 2000
(Image source Getty Images)
St. Louis – Vice President Richard “Dick” Gephardt and Texas Governor Ann Richards claimed victory in last night’s Presidential Election, claiming narrow but crucial wins in the make-or-break swing states of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, giving them a 301-237 Electoral Vote margin and winning 49% of the popular vote to Dan Quayle’s and Al D’Amato’s just-under 47%. The Reform Party, meanwhile, had a rough night, with Senators Jesse Ventura and Ben Nighthorse Campbell managing a paltry 0.62%, finishing far behind even Ralph Nader and Winona La Duke’s Green Party, which claimed 2.74%.[1]
“Reform just doesn’t perform without Perot,” said Democratic strategist James Carville, who echoed the idea that without its charismatic founder Reform just doesn’t have the steam to keep up with the GOP and Dems as a national party.
Reform similarly took a beating in the House of Representatives, losing 3 seats and returning the House to a Democratic majority, albeit a razor-thin one. Of the five remaining Reform congresspeople, three caucus with the Democrats while two caucus with the GOP, resulting in a Democratic-Reform-Socialist coalition, albeit one with no margin of error. Reform still holds its four Senate seats, and thus remains a factor, even with Democratic wins in California, Missouri, Georgia, and Michigan giving them a 50-seat majority when VP Richards is factored in. “Reform took a clocking on the national level, but they’re still a force to be reckoned with in both Houses [of Congress],” said Carville.
These Reform votes will play a crucial role in President Gephardt’s promised “reevaluation” of NAFTA, and likely to play a role in… Cont’d on A2.
Presidential Election
Vice President Dick Gephardt (D-MO) / Governor Ann Richards (D-TX) - 301 - 49.00% - 51,308,143
Former Vice President Dan Quayle (R-IN) / Governor Al D'Amato (R-NY) - 237 - 46.91% - 49,114,410
Ralph Nader (G-CT) / Winona La Duke (G-MN) - 2.74% - 2,869,263
Senator Jesse Ventura (Ref/NL-MN) / Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Ref/NL-CO) - .62% - 652,955*
Harry Browne (L-TN) / Art Oliver (L-CA) - .37% - 388,889
Governor Dean Barkley (Ref/NL-MN) / Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Ref/NL-CO) - .17% - 173,142 *
Howard Phillips (C-VA) / Curtis Frazier (C-MO) - .09% - 97,358
Patrick Buchanan (Ref-VA) / Ezola Foster (Ref-CA) - .03% - 33,611*
Scattered - .06% - 67,991
*Natural Law nominated Jesse Ventura in every state except Minnesota, where he was running for re-election to the Senate and couldn’t run for both and so Dean Barkley was nominated there. Reform largely endorsed Gephardt, but Reform joined Natural Law in nominating Ventura in the following states: Connecticut, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Nevada, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Utah and Vermont. Buchanan was nominated by right-wing Reform parties in the following states: Louisiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, and Oregon.
Senate
Democrats: 50 (+2)
Republicans: 46 (-2)
Reform: 4 (+/-)*
President Pro Tempore: Richard Byrd (D-WV)
Senate Majority Leader: Jim Sasser (D-TN)
Senate Majority Whip: Geraldine Ferraro (D-NY)
Senate Minority Leader: Bob Dole (R-KS)
Senate Minority Whip: Trent Lott (R-MS)
Senate Reform Leader: Jim Jeffords (Ref-VT)*
*King has explicitly moved to officially caucusing with Democrats and stepped down as Leader.
California: Former Governor Dianne Feinstein (D) def Senator Pete Wilson (R) - 46.49- 46.06 - Dem Flip**
Florida: Senator JEB Bush (R) def Attorney General Bob Butterworth (D/Ref) - 57.1- 39.93 - Rep Hold
Maine: Senator Angus King (Ref w/ Dem) def Former Representative Olympia Snowe (R) and State Senator Matthew Lawrence - First Round: King - 39.66, Snowe - 32.02, Lawrence - 28.32. SEcond Round - King - 63.7, Snowe - 37.3
Michigan: Former Secretary of Labor James Blanchard (D w/Ref) def Senator Ronna Romney (R) - 49.08 - 48.21 - Democratic Flip*
Minnesota: Senator Jesse Ventura (Ref) def Former Auditor Mark Dayton (D) and State Rep Tim Pawlenty (R) - 36.75 - 36.33 - 29.02 - Ref Hold
Missouri: Governor Mel Carnahan (D w/Ref) def Senator John Ashcroft (R) - 54 - 44.7 - Dem Flip; Notably Mel Carnahan’s plane crash is butterflied.
Montana: Senator John Melcher (D/w Ref) def Rep Frank Hill (R) - 58.47 - 41. 53 - Dem Hold
Nevada: Treasurer Bob Seale (R) def Broadcaster Edward Bernstein (D) and None of These Candidates - 51.71 - 40.3 - 4.72 - Rep Flip
New Jersey: Congressman Bob Franks (R) def CEO John Corzine (D w/Ref) - 48.88 - 48.53 - Rep Flip
New York: Representative Chuck Schumer (D w/Ref) def Lt. Governor George Pataki (R) - 54.02 - 44.36 - Dem Hold*
Pennsylvania: Senator John Heinz (R) def Rep Ron Klink (D w/ Ref) - 54.03 - 44.11 - Rep Hold*
Rhode Island: Mayor Lincoln Chaffee (R) def Senator Linda Kushner (D) - 51.32 - 42.13 - Rep Flip**
Tennessee: Senator John Sasser (D w/Ref) def Rep Ed Bryant (R) - 58.14 - 39.33 - Dem Hold
Texas: Senator Joe Barton (R) def Comptroller John Sharp (D) - 51.04 - 46.51 - Rep Hold*
Vermont: Senator Jim Jeffords (Ref) def Auditor Ed Flannagan (D) and Attorney Rick Hubbard (R) - 55.3-23.24-11.77 - Ref Hold
Virginia: Senator Doug Wilder (D w/ Ref) def Rep Tom Davis (R) - 51.32 - 48.85 - Dem Hold
Washington: Senator Norm Rice (D w/Ref) def Rep Rick White (R) - 60.36-36.99 - Dem Hold*
Wyoming: Senator John Vinich (DRef) def State Senator Barbara Cubin (R) - 54.17 - 45.15 - DemRef Hold
*Same Party as our timeline
**Same Office Holder as our timeline
House of Representatives
Democrats: 215 (+3)
Republicans: 214 (+/-)
Reform: 5 (-3) [3 allied with Democrats, 2 with Republicans including formerly unaligned Rep Wood]
Socialist: 1 (+/)
Democrats w/ Reform and Socialist Majority
Speaker: David Bonior (D-MI)
House Majority Leader: Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)
House Majority Whip: John Lewis (D-GA)
House Minority Leader: Dick Armey (R-TX)
House Minority Whip: Tom Delay (R-TX)
Reform Leader: John Michael (Ref-ME)
Notable House Elections
AL 2nd - Rep George Wallace (R-AL) def Charles Woods (D w/Ref) - 70.3-27.2 - Republican Hold*
AK - State Senator Loren Leman (R) def John Whitmore (Ref w/D) - 49.7 - 46.7 - Republican Flip
Arkansas 2nd - Representative Bud Cummins (R) defeats Former State Senator Vic Snyder (D/Ref) - 50.68 - 49.26 - Rep Hold
California 1st - Former State Senator Mike Thompson (D) defeats Representative Dan Hamburg (Ref) and Russel Chase (R) - 58.53 - 21.1 - 14.65 - DemRef switch to Ref to Dem Flip*
California 3rd - Rep Saide Dunn (D/Ref) defeats Doug Ose (R) - 53.73 - 42.8 - Dem Hold
California 4th - Former State Rep Barbara Alby (R) defeats Representative Patricia Mahlberg (D w/Ref) - 50.07 - 44.76 - Rep Flip*
California 11th - Representative Patti Garamendi (D w/Ref) def Councilor Sandy Smoley (R) - 51.43 - 44.48 - Dem Hold
California 22nd - Representative Gary Hart (D w/Ref ) defeats Mike Stoker (R) - 57.42 - 40.99 - Dem Hold*
California 38th - Representative Rick Zbur (D) def Tim Escobar (R) - 60.77 - 35..1 - Democratic Hold
California 43rd - Rep Mark Takano (D) defeats Martin Collen (R) -50.17 - 44.62 - Dem Hold
California 49th - Representative Lynn Schenk (D) def Peter Navarro (R) - 62.93 - 32.68 - Dem Hold *
Connecticut 2nd - Rep David Bingham (Ref w/R) def Martin Masters (D) - 67.8 - 32.2 - Reform Hold
Idaho 1st - Lt. Governor Butch Otter (R) def Rep Marion Ellis (Ref w/D) - 58.54- 39.16 - Rep Flip**
Illinois 11th - Rep Clem Balanoff (D w/Ref) def former State Rep Samuel Panayotovich (R) - 55.25 - 44.75 - Dem Hold
Illinois 18th - Rep David Phelps (D w/Ref) wins without opposition - Dem Hold
Illinois 20th - State Senator Laura Donahue (R) defeats Rep Jay Hoffman (D w/Ref) - 51.75 - 48.17 - Rep Flip*
Indiana 9th - Representative Jean Lesing (R) defeats James McClure (D w/Ref) - 54.81 - 43.18 - Rep Hold
Kansas 2nd - Former Mayor Douglas Wright (R) defeats Rep John Frieden (D w/Ref) - 53.21 - 43.25 - Republican Flip
Kansas 3rd - Representative Judy Kline (D w/Ref) defeats Phil Kline (R) - 52.25 - 42.71 - Dem Hold*
Kansas 4th - Representative Seth Warren (Ref W/D) defeats Nancy Harrington (R) - 56.25 - 40.21 - Ref Hold
Kentucky 4th - Representative Gex Williams (R) defeats Howard Feinberg (D w/Ref) - 54.2 - 43.73 - Rep Hold
Louisiana 7th - Lt. Governor Kathleen Blanco (D) defeats Rep Clyde Holloway (R) - 58.83 - 40.76 - Dem Flip
Maine 2nd - Representative John Michael (Ref) defeats State Senator Michael Michaud (D) and Richard Campbell (R) - First Round: Michael - 42.03, Michaud - 33.5, Campbell - 22.57
Second Round - Michael - 61.41, Michaud - 38.59 - Reform Hold
Massachusetts 1st - State Rep Ellen Story (D) defeats Representative Patrick Larkin (R w/Ref) - 57.72 - 41.04 - Dem Flip
Michigan 7th - Rep John Conyers (D w/ REf) - 74.54, William Ashe (R) - 62.69-35.28 - Dem Hold
Michigan 8th -State Senator Debbie Stabenow (D w/Ref) def. State Senator Mike Rogers (R) - 54.8 - 43.17 - Dem Hold
Michigan 11th - State Department Staffer Matthew Frumin (D w/Ref) defeats Marty Knollenberg (R) - 71.27 - 25.7 - Dem Hold
Michigan 12th - IOTL 14th District Holder Dennis Hertel (D) holds this seat rather than being drawn into Sander Levin’s District
Michigan 17th - Representative Sander Levin (D) holds this district number instead of John Conyers - Dem Hold
Minnesota 2nd - Representative Cal Ludeman (R) def Janet Robert (DFL) - 53.73 - 42.45 - Rep Hold
Mississippi 4th - Rep Dennis Hosemann (R) def. Former State Senator Ronnie Shows (D)- 51.91-46.75 - Rep Hold
Missouri 6th - State Senator Steve Danner (D w/Ref) def State Senator Sam Graves (R) - 50.26 - 47.31 - Dem Hold
Montana - Rep Steve Kelly (Ref w/ D) def Denny Rehberg (R) - 51.87 - 45.7 - Ref Hold
Nevada 1st - Rep Gary Wood (Ref w/R) def Shelley Berkley (D) - 54.42-42.61 - Ref Hold
New Jersey 2nd - Dick Zimmer (R) def Rep David Del Vecchio (D w/ Ref) - 50.78 - 47.3 - Rep Flip
New York 1st - Michael Forbes (R) doesn’t switch parties ITTL and is re-elected
Pennsylvania 13th - Rep John Fox (R) def State Senator Allyson Schwartz (D w/Ref) - 57.63 - 41.44 - Rep Hold
Pennsylvania 15th - Rep Jim Yeager (R) def Ed O’Brien (D W/Ref) - 54.63 - 45.37 - Rep Hold*
Pa 20th - Mayor Thomas Murphy (D W/Ref) def Rep Bill Townsend (R) -52.44 - 47.56 Dem Flip*
Texas 5th - Regina Coggins (D w/Ref) defeats Rep Pete Sessions (R) - 53.44 - 46.56 - Dem Flip
Texas 9th - Rep Jack Brooks (D w/ Ref) defeats Paul Williams (R) - 69.01- 31.04 Dem Hold*
TX 14th - Rep Lefty Morris (D w/ Ref) defeats Ron Paul (R) - 59.01 - 40.99 - Dem Hold
Utah 2nd - Jim Mattheson (D) defeats Rep Merrill Cook (Ref) and Derek Smith (R) - 51.47 - 25.24 - 20.38 - Dem Flip**
Virginia 2nd - Lawyer Jody Wagner (D w/Ref) def State Senator Ed Schrock (R) - 51.53- 48.47 - Dem Hold
Virginia 5th - Virgil Goode remains a Democrat and is re-elected as such**
Washington 1st - Representative Rick White (R) def Bob Drewel (D w/Ref) - 51 - 46.07 - Rep Hold
Wisconsin 2nd - Representative Josephine Musser (R) def State Senator Joseph Wineke (D w/Ref) - 58.14 - 41.76 - Rep Hold
Wyoming - Rep Pete Maxfield (DRef) def State Senator Carol Miller (R) - 52.08 - 43.19 - DemRef Hold
*Same Party as our timeline
**Reversion to our timeline’s seat holder
Governor Elections
Republicans: 22 (+/-)
Democrats: 21 (+/-)
Reform: 7(+/-)
Chapter 6: Reform Peaks
From Swirling Colors: The Rise of Political Populism in the Nineties, by Steve Kornacki
The Reform Party arguably hit its peak in 1999-2000 with the 1998 Midterm Elections, a “chaotic” election full of three-way races that saw neither the GOP nor the Democrats hold a majority in either house and saw Reform Representatives and Senators and slash-reform Stripebacks holding the balance of power. It was an era that saw Reform in a privileged position as Kingmakers and Deal-brokers, saw Reform interests elevated and implemented, and shook up the foundations of the two-party system. But it was also the beginning of the end of the Reform party’s brief explosion onto the national scene as a separate entity.
Reform and Stripeback Representatives and Senators proved consequential in the Welfare Reform compromises that helped lead to a slight budget surplus[2]. They proved critical in setting up the commission on Medicare efficiency lead by Senator John Breaux of Louisiana, with a package to be voted on by the end of Gore’s second term. Alas, filibuster threats and opposition within the party, including by VP Gephardt (who some accuse of worrying more about avoiding controversy in the lead-up to 2000), watered down many of the bolder platforms and put off any raise in the full benefits age until after 2010. Similar issues watered down Social Security Reform (such as Social Security “choice”). Still, reforms were implemented, such as income-based minimum guaranteed contributions in the Social Security Fund, with any surplus going into private investments to help “fund” the program and support long-term solvency[3].
Reform efforts at Election Reform, including a doomed Amendment to end the Electoral College, floundered at the national level, though they succeeded in launching an Electoral Reform Committee that in turn saw many of its proposals (such as open primaries and ranked choice voting) implemented in New England, Alaska, the West, and other Reform havens. Reform also implemented versions of the so-called “New York System” of fusion ballots, allowing for the creation of more “Stripeback” candidates.
Reform proved critical in passing the McCain-Ferraro Act that reformed campaign finance and tightened rules on investment and insider trading by US politicians. However, GOP opposition spearheaded by Dick Armey killed an attempt at forcing disclosure of all campaign donors.
Reform also proved critical in killing Gore’s attempts to get the Kyoto Protocol ratified (they called it “Inequitable”), though the Gore Administration signed the Protocol and committed the US to meet the projected climate goals anyway, which the GGA had put the US well on track to achieve already.
But the 2000 election would end that brief Golden Age. Reform Presidential candidate Jesse Ventura would be locked out of the Presidential Debates by the major parties[4], see Pat Buchannan whittle away some of his “Reform” votes, see many State Reform parties instead back Gephardt, and thus failed to even break 1% of the popular vote. Straight Reform candidates would also lose ground at the local level, increasingly being seen as spoilers rather than serious contenders. Reform would lose three seats in the House while breaking even in the Senate. And an increasing percentage of the victorious “Reform” candidates were Stripebacks, rather than straight Reform.
The Barnyard, the Bucks, the Flamingos, and the Wolverines would thus peak in 1999/2000 and start to decline, while the future of Reform belonged to the Stripebacks.
(Image source Dreamstime)
The “winner takes all” nature of US politics inevitably benefits a two-party system, even despite the inroads that Reform and other Third Parties have made in many States thanks to ranked choice ballots and open primaries. As such, third-party disrupters like Reform tend either to burn out quickly or – rarely – replace one of the earlier dominant parties, like how the Republicans replaced the Whigs and the Whigs replaced the Federalists. As such, with Reform being a shaky partnership between such disparate factions as New England moderates, frontier populists, angry nativists, blue collar workers, and various fringe elements united only by Ross Perot’s cult of personality, it was natural that the “Cockeyed Caucus” would fall apart without him.
Ventura’s poor showing in 2000, in part due to the machinations of the Presidential Debate Committee and other overt acts of political sabotage, in part due to Reform’s “luster” wearing off after far too many years making noise on the sidelines without showing results, was the final nail in the Reform coffin, all but ending the Reform Party as a national organization. Instead, the rump regional Reform organizations would take a cue from the strange world of New York politics and forge political alliances with one of the local major parties, usually the disadvantaged one, in the way of the Conservative and Liberal Parties of New York.
Instead of becoming America’s “Third Party” or displacing one of the Big Two, Reform would have a different future: as a political “tag” for centrist or non-mainstream politicians.
As the two political parties began their shifts to the edges and the national parties repeatedly established “litmus test” criteria for membership, typically on wedge issues like abortion or guns, “putting a stripe on your back” became an easy way for a regional politician to stand out from the national party. A rural Democrat in Wyoming could declare their support for the Second Amendment and their opposition to Abortion Rights and not be cast out of the national party simply by tacking “-Ref” to their name (and indeed the Democratic Party in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, and the Dakotas would basically merge with Reform and keep the National Party at arm’s length going forward). A Republican in New England could likewise express their support for Roe v. Wade and willingness to accept Gun Control measures (and indeed Connecticut, Massachusetts, and other Northeastern Republicans increasingly went Stripe-back, as did many California GOP). Only a handful of “Dedicated Reform” politicians would remain going forward into the 21st Century, such as Maine’s Angus King, who so reliably caucused with the Democrats that they stopped running candidates against him.
The National Reform Party increasingly became, like the Greens or the Libertarians, a “protest vote party” where those wishing to “send a signal to both sides” would cast their ballot. Reform in swing states like Florida or Georgia became a non-starter as razor-thin races discouraged protest voting and encouraged candidates of both parties to run towards the middle. Instead, Reform in these states began to become more of a political action group whose endorsement was coveted by both sides and could make the difference in tight races, or as a pressure group who could use the threat of running a spoiler third candidate as a threat to gain concessions from the likely winner. Reform stopped running Presidential candidates in 2008 after again failing to break 1% of the vote in 2004.
But for the Stripebacks, Reform was their ticket to relevance in increasingly monochrome states, a “free pass” to break with the national caucus on an issue-by-issue basis and publicly call out the actions of the party leadership without fear of losing national party campaign funds. “Reform” could thus continue to raise a stink just by affixing the hyphen to a standing member of one of the two major parties, and remain a force in US politics, even as the National Reform Party faded from relevance.
And having the Reform moniker even allowed one to openly break with their own caucus within the government with less fear of retaliation by the national party. It even occasionally allowed for caucuses of Stripebacks to lead temporary cross-aisle “centrist coalitions” to pass bills that would have otherwise been blocked by the party fringe on either side, which became increasingly critical for compromises on critical but contested areas like budgets and judiciary nominations.
As a result, the ultimate legacy of Ross Perot’s Reform Party and the US Populist Surge of the 1990s became the Stripebacks, and the ultimately Centrist-Populist “Cross-aisle Caucus” that they created.
[1] @jpj1421 and I ran through several scenarios, and, simply put, Gephardt was a hard candidate to beat given the political and social situation. The economy is good, world events are challenging but not catastrophic, there are no major domestic issues for the GOP to hammer on save for standard grievance/identity politics and wedge issues, and there’s no real serious political baggage or scandal here to weigh him down. Jeb Bush and John McCain both lose to him in most matchup scenarios. George W. Bush likely loses too if he’d followed our timeline’s path (he only barely beat Gore in our timeline!). Quayle poled about equal to them, so don’t blame this on Quayle. Simply put, Gore, a very uninspiring candidate, only lost in our timeline by just over 500 votes in a single highly-contested State (Florida) and that was with a huge grassroots surge in Conservative politics following the highly-controversial Clinton Years and the Republican Revolution. Gore, the boring technocrat, just doesn’t garner the hate to drive reactive turnout. And Gephardt has several advantages here in that he’s got “cred” with both Progressives and with Blue Collar Union “Reagan Democrat” types and even wins over lots of Reform Party types thanks to his Trade Skepticism, meaning that the Rust Belt solidly backs him. He also doesn’t alienate moderates. In all, only a Reagan-caliber candidate is going to beat him, and the GOP in 2000 ain’t got one.
[2] In our timeline Clinton and Gingrich, despite all of their public enmity, worked together on compromise legislation including Welfare Reform that led to a $70 billion surplus. In this timeline much of that surplus goes to fund the Green Grown Act, so we end up roughly breaking even.
[3] Similar efforts nearly led to a “grand compromise” between Clinton and Gingrich on entitlement reform, but the Monica Lewinski affair and subsequent impeachment derailed these efforts. See here.
[4] As happened to Perot in 1996 in our timeline.
Quayle Concedes: “A hard fought campaign”
Dems gain 2 seats in Senate, 3 in House
Reform and “Stripebacks” lose ground, but remain a factor
The Washington Post, November 8th, 2000
(Image source Getty Images)
St. Louis – Vice President Richard “Dick” Gephardt and Texas Governor Ann Richards claimed victory in last night’s Presidential Election, claiming narrow but crucial wins in the make-or-break swing states of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, giving them a 301-237 Electoral Vote margin and winning 49% of the popular vote to Dan Quayle’s and Al D’Amato’s just-under 47%. The Reform Party, meanwhile, had a rough night, with Senators Jesse Ventura and Ben Nighthorse Campbell managing a paltry 0.62%, finishing far behind even Ralph Nader and Winona La Duke’s Green Party, which claimed 2.74%.[1]
“Reform just doesn’t perform without Perot,” said Democratic strategist James Carville, who echoed the idea that without its charismatic founder Reform just doesn’t have the steam to keep up with the GOP and Dems as a national party.
Reform similarly took a beating in the House of Representatives, losing 3 seats and returning the House to a Democratic majority, albeit a razor-thin one. Of the five remaining Reform congresspeople, three caucus with the Democrats while two caucus with the GOP, resulting in a Democratic-Reform-Socialist coalition, albeit one with no margin of error. Reform still holds its four Senate seats, and thus remains a factor, even with Democratic wins in California, Missouri, Georgia, and Michigan giving them a 50-seat majority when VP Richards is factored in. “Reform took a clocking on the national level, but they’re still a force to be reckoned with in both Houses [of Congress],” said Carville.
These Reform votes will play a crucial role in President Gephardt’s promised “reevaluation” of NAFTA, and likely to play a role in… Cont’d on A2.
Presidential Election
Vice President Dick Gephardt (D-MO) / Governor Ann Richards (D-TX) - 301 - 49.00% - 51,308,143
Former Vice President Dan Quayle (R-IN) / Governor Al D'Amato (R-NY) - 237 - 46.91% - 49,114,410
Ralph Nader (G-CT) / Winona La Duke (G-MN) - 2.74% - 2,869,263
Senator Jesse Ventura (Ref/NL-MN) / Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Ref/NL-CO) - .62% - 652,955*
Harry Browne (L-TN) / Art Oliver (L-CA) - .37% - 388,889
Governor Dean Barkley (Ref/NL-MN) / Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Ref/NL-CO) - .17% - 173,142 *
Howard Phillips (C-VA) / Curtis Frazier (C-MO) - .09% - 97,358
Patrick Buchanan (Ref-VA) / Ezola Foster (Ref-CA) - .03% - 33,611*
Scattered - .06% - 67,991
*Natural Law nominated Jesse Ventura in every state except Minnesota, where he was running for re-election to the Senate and couldn’t run for both and so Dean Barkley was nominated there. Reform largely endorsed Gephardt, but Reform joined Natural Law in nominating Ventura in the following states: Connecticut, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Nevada, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Utah and Vermont. Buchanan was nominated by right-wing Reform parties in the following states: Louisiana, Missouri, New Hampshire, and Oregon.
Senate
Democrats: 50 (+2)
Republicans: 46 (-2)
Reform: 4 (+/-)*
President Pro Tempore: Richard Byrd (D-WV)
Senate Majority Leader: Jim Sasser (D-TN)
Senate Majority Whip: Geraldine Ferraro (D-NY)
Senate Minority Leader: Bob Dole (R-KS)
Senate Minority Whip: Trent Lott (R-MS)
Senate Reform Leader: Jim Jeffords (Ref-VT)*
*King has explicitly moved to officially caucusing with Democrats and stepped down as Leader.
California: Former Governor Dianne Feinstein (D) def Senator Pete Wilson (R) - 46.49- 46.06 - Dem Flip**
Florida: Senator JEB Bush (R) def Attorney General Bob Butterworth (D/Ref) - 57.1- 39.93 - Rep Hold
Maine: Senator Angus King (Ref w/ Dem) def Former Representative Olympia Snowe (R) and State Senator Matthew Lawrence - First Round: King - 39.66, Snowe - 32.02, Lawrence - 28.32. SEcond Round - King - 63.7, Snowe - 37.3
Michigan: Former Secretary of Labor James Blanchard (D w/Ref) def Senator Ronna Romney (R) - 49.08 - 48.21 - Democratic Flip*
Minnesota: Senator Jesse Ventura (Ref) def Former Auditor Mark Dayton (D) and State Rep Tim Pawlenty (R) - 36.75 - 36.33 - 29.02 - Ref Hold
Missouri: Governor Mel Carnahan (D w/Ref) def Senator John Ashcroft (R) - 54 - 44.7 - Dem Flip; Notably Mel Carnahan’s plane crash is butterflied.
Montana: Senator John Melcher (D/w Ref) def Rep Frank Hill (R) - 58.47 - 41. 53 - Dem Hold
Nevada: Treasurer Bob Seale (R) def Broadcaster Edward Bernstein (D) and None of These Candidates - 51.71 - 40.3 - 4.72 - Rep Flip
New Jersey: Congressman Bob Franks (R) def CEO John Corzine (D w/Ref) - 48.88 - 48.53 - Rep Flip
New York: Representative Chuck Schumer (D w/Ref) def Lt. Governor George Pataki (R) - 54.02 - 44.36 - Dem Hold*
Pennsylvania: Senator John Heinz (R) def Rep Ron Klink (D w/ Ref) - 54.03 - 44.11 - Rep Hold*
Rhode Island: Mayor Lincoln Chaffee (R) def Senator Linda Kushner (D) - 51.32 - 42.13 - Rep Flip**
Tennessee: Senator John Sasser (D w/Ref) def Rep Ed Bryant (R) - 58.14 - 39.33 - Dem Hold
Texas: Senator Joe Barton (R) def Comptroller John Sharp (D) - 51.04 - 46.51 - Rep Hold*
Vermont: Senator Jim Jeffords (Ref) def Auditor Ed Flannagan (D) and Attorney Rick Hubbard (R) - 55.3-23.24-11.77 - Ref Hold
Virginia: Senator Doug Wilder (D w/ Ref) def Rep Tom Davis (R) - 51.32 - 48.85 - Dem Hold
Washington: Senator Norm Rice (D w/Ref) def Rep Rick White (R) - 60.36-36.99 - Dem Hold*
Wyoming: Senator John Vinich (DRef) def State Senator Barbara Cubin (R) - 54.17 - 45.15 - DemRef Hold
*Same Party as our timeline
**Same Office Holder as our timeline
House of Representatives
Democrats: 215 (+3)
Republicans: 214 (+/-)
Reform: 5 (-3) [3 allied with Democrats, 2 with Republicans including formerly unaligned Rep Wood]
Socialist: 1 (+/)
Democrats w/ Reform and Socialist Majority
Speaker: David Bonior (D-MI)
House Majority Leader: Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)
House Majority Whip: John Lewis (D-GA)
House Minority Leader: Dick Armey (R-TX)
House Minority Whip: Tom Delay (R-TX)
Reform Leader: John Michael (Ref-ME)
Notable House Elections
AL 2nd - Rep George Wallace (R-AL) def Charles Woods (D w/Ref) - 70.3-27.2 - Republican Hold*
AK - State Senator Loren Leman (R) def John Whitmore (Ref w/D) - 49.7 - 46.7 - Republican Flip
Arkansas 2nd - Representative Bud Cummins (R) defeats Former State Senator Vic Snyder (D/Ref) - 50.68 - 49.26 - Rep Hold
California 1st - Former State Senator Mike Thompson (D) defeats Representative Dan Hamburg (Ref) and Russel Chase (R) - 58.53 - 21.1 - 14.65 - DemRef switch to Ref to Dem Flip*
California 3rd - Rep Saide Dunn (D/Ref) defeats Doug Ose (R) - 53.73 - 42.8 - Dem Hold
California 4th - Former State Rep Barbara Alby (R) defeats Representative Patricia Mahlberg (D w/Ref) - 50.07 - 44.76 - Rep Flip*
California 11th - Representative Patti Garamendi (D w/Ref) def Councilor Sandy Smoley (R) - 51.43 - 44.48 - Dem Hold
California 22nd - Representative Gary Hart (D w/Ref ) defeats Mike Stoker (R) - 57.42 - 40.99 - Dem Hold*
California 38th - Representative Rick Zbur (D) def Tim Escobar (R) - 60.77 - 35..1 - Democratic Hold
California 43rd - Rep Mark Takano (D) defeats Martin Collen (R) -50.17 - 44.62 - Dem Hold
California 49th - Representative Lynn Schenk (D) def Peter Navarro (R) - 62.93 - 32.68 - Dem Hold *
Connecticut 2nd - Rep David Bingham (Ref w/R) def Martin Masters (D) - 67.8 - 32.2 - Reform Hold
Idaho 1st - Lt. Governor Butch Otter (R) def Rep Marion Ellis (Ref w/D) - 58.54- 39.16 - Rep Flip**
Illinois 11th - Rep Clem Balanoff (D w/Ref) def former State Rep Samuel Panayotovich (R) - 55.25 - 44.75 - Dem Hold
Illinois 18th - Rep David Phelps (D w/Ref) wins without opposition - Dem Hold
Illinois 20th - State Senator Laura Donahue (R) defeats Rep Jay Hoffman (D w/Ref) - 51.75 - 48.17 - Rep Flip*
Indiana 9th - Representative Jean Lesing (R) defeats James McClure (D w/Ref) - 54.81 - 43.18 - Rep Hold
Kansas 2nd - Former Mayor Douglas Wright (R) defeats Rep John Frieden (D w/Ref) - 53.21 - 43.25 - Republican Flip
Kansas 3rd - Representative Judy Kline (D w/Ref) defeats Phil Kline (R) - 52.25 - 42.71 - Dem Hold*
Kansas 4th - Representative Seth Warren (Ref W/D) defeats Nancy Harrington (R) - 56.25 - 40.21 - Ref Hold
Kentucky 4th - Representative Gex Williams (R) defeats Howard Feinberg (D w/Ref) - 54.2 - 43.73 - Rep Hold
Louisiana 7th - Lt. Governor Kathleen Blanco (D) defeats Rep Clyde Holloway (R) - 58.83 - 40.76 - Dem Flip
Maine 2nd - Representative John Michael (Ref) defeats State Senator Michael Michaud (D) and Richard Campbell (R) - First Round: Michael - 42.03, Michaud - 33.5, Campbell - 22.57
Second Round - Michael - 61.41, Michaud - 38.59 - Reform Hold
Massachusetts 1st - State Rep Ellen Story (D) defeats Representative Patrick Larkin (R w/Ref) - 57.72 - 41.04 - Dem Flip
Michigan 7th - Rep John Conyers (D w/ REf) - 74.54, William Ashe (R) - 62.69-35.28 - Dem Hold
Michigan 8th -State Senator Debbie Stabenow (D w/Ref) def. State Senator Mike Rogers (R) - 54.8 - 43.17 - Dem Hold
Michigan 11th - State Department Staffer Matthew Frumin (D w/Ref) defeats Marty Knollenberg (R) - 71.27 - 25.7 - Dem Hold
Michigan 12th - IOTL 14th District Holder Dennis Hertel (D) holds this seat rather than being drawn into Sander Levin’s District
Michigan 17th - Representative Sander Levin (D) holds this district number instead of John Conyers - Dem Hold
Minnesota 2nd - Representative Cal Ludeman (R) def Janet Robert (DFL) - 53.73 - 42.45 - Rep Hold
Mississippi 4th - Rep Dennis Hosemann (R) def. Former State Senator Ronnie Shows (D)- 51.91-46.75 - Rep Hold
Missouri 6th - State Senator Steve Danner (D w/Ref) def State Senator Sam Graves (R) - 50.26 - 47.31 - Dem Hold
Montana - Rep Steve Kelly (Ref w/ D) def Denny Rehberg (R) - 51.87 - 45.7 - Ref Hold
Nevada 1st - Rep Gary Wood (Ref w/R) def Shelley Berkley (D) - 54.42-42.61 - Ref Hold
New Jersey 2nd - Dick Zimmer (R) def Rep David Del Vecchio (D w/ Ref) - 50.78 - 47.3 - Rep Flip
New York 1st - Michael Forbes (R) doesn’t switch parties ITTL and is re-elected
Pennsylvania 13th - Rep John Fox (R) def State Senator Allyson Schwartz (D w/Ref) - 57.63 - 41.44 - Rep Hold
Pennsylvania 15th - Rep Jim Yeager (R) def Ed O’Brien (D W/Ref) - 54.63 - 45.37 - Rep Hold*
Pa 20th - Mayor Thomas Murphy (D W/Ref) def Rep Bill Townsend (R) -52.44 - 47.56 Dem Flip*
Texas 5th - Regina Coggins (D w/Ref) defeats Rep Pete Sessions (R) - 53.44 - 46.56 - Dem Flip
Texas 9th - Rep Jack Brooks (D w/ Ref) defeats Paul Williams (R) - 69.01- 31.04 Dem Hold*
TX 14th - Rep Lefty Morris (D w/ Ref) defeats Ron Paul (R) - 59.01 - 40.99 - Dem Hold
Utah 2nd - Jim Mattheson (D) defeats Rep Merrill Cook (Ref) and Derek Smith (R) - 51.47 - 25.24 - 20.38 - Dem Flip**
Virginia 2nd - Lawyer Jody Wagner (D w/Ref) def State Senator Ed Schrock (R) - 51.53- 48.47 - Dem Hold
Virginia 5th - Virgil Goode remains a Democrat and is re-elected as such**
Washington 1st - Representative Rick White (R) def Bob Drewel (D w/Ref) - 51 - 46.07 - Rep Hold
Wisconsin 2nd - Representative Josephine Musser (R) def State Senator Joseph Wineke (D w/Ref) - 58.14 - 41.76 - Rep Hold
Wyoming - Rep Pete Maxfield (DRef) def State Senator Carol Miller (R) - 52.08 - 43.19 - DemRef Hold
*Same Party as our timeline
**Reversion to our timeline’s seat holder
Governor Elections
Republicans: 22 (+/-)
Democrats: 21 (+/-)
Reform: 7(+/-)
Chapter 6: Reform Peaks
From Swirling Colors: The Rise of Political Populism in the Nineties, by Steve Kornacki
The Reform Party arguably hit its peak in 1999-2000 with the 1998 Midterm Elections, a “chaotic” election full of three-way races that saw neither the GOP nor the Democrats hold a majority in either house and saw Reform Representatives and Senators and slash-reform Stripebacks holding the balance of power. It was an era that saw Reform in a privileged position as Kingmakers and Deal-brokers, saw Reform interests elevated and implemented, and shook up the foundations of the two-party system. But it was also the beginning of the end of the Reform party’s brief explosion onto the national scene as a separate entity.
Reform and Stripeback Representatives and Senators proved consequential in the Welfare Reform compromises that helped lead to a slight budget surplus[2]. They proved critical in setting up the commission on Medicare efficiency lead by Senator John Breaux of Louisiana, with a package to be voted on by the end of Gore’s second term. Alas, filibuster threats and opposition within the party, including by VP Gephardt (who some accuse of worrying more about avoiding controversy in the lead-up to 2000), watered down many of the bolder platforms and put off any raise in the full benefits age until after 2010. Similar issues watered down Social Security Reform (such as Social Security “choice”). Still, reforms were implemented, such as income-based minimum guaranteed contributions in the Social Security Fund, with any surplus going into private investments to help “fund” the program and support long-term solvency[3].
Reform efforts at Election Reform, including a doomed Amendment to end the Electoral College, floundered at the national level, though they succeeded in launching an Electoral Reform Committee that in turn saw many of its proposals (such as open primaries and ranked choice voting) implemented in New England, Alaska, the West, and other Reform havens. Reform also implemented versions of the so-called “New York System” of fusion ballots, allowing for the creation of more “Stripeback” candidates.
Reform proved critical in passing the McCain-Ferraro Act that reformed campaign finance and tightened rules on investment and insider trading by US politicians. However, GOP opposition spearheaded by Dick Armey killed an attempt at forcing disclosure of all campaign donors.
Reform also proved critical in killing Gore’s attempts to get the Kyoto Protocol ratified (they called it “Inequitable”), though the Gore Administration signed the Protocol and committed the US to meet the projected climate goals anyway, which the GGA had put the US well on track to achieve already.
But the 2000 election would end that brief Golden Age. Reform Presidential candidate Jesse Ventura would be locked out of the Presidential Debates by the major parties[4], see Pat Buchannan whittle away some of his “Reform” votes, see many State Reform parties instead back Gephardt, and thus failed to even break 1% of the popular vote. Straight Reform candidates would also lose ground at the local level, increasingly being seen as spoilers rather than serious contenders. Reform would lose three seats in the House while breaking even in the Senate. And an increasing percentage of the victorious “Reform” candidates were Stripebacks, rather than straight Reform.
The Barnyard, the Bucks, the Flamingos, and the Wolverines would thus peak in 1999/2000 and start to decline, while the future of Reform belonged to the Stripebacks.
(Image source Dreamstime)
The “winner takes all” nature of US politics inevitably benefits a two-party system, even despite the inroads that Reform and other Third Parties have made in many States thanks to ranked choice ballots and open primaries. As such, third-party disrupters like Reform tend either to burn out quickly or – rarely – replace one of the earlier dominant parties, like how the Republicans replaced the Whigs and the Whigs replaced the Federalists. As such, with Reform being a shaky partnership between such disparate factions as New England moderates, frontier populists, angry nativists, blue collar workers, and various fringe elements united only by Ross Perot’s cult of personality, it was natural that the “Cockeyed Caucus” would fall apart without him.
Ventura’s poor showing in 2000, in part due to the machinations of the Presidential Debate Committee and other overt acts of political sabotage, in part due to Reform’s “luster” wearing off after far too many years making noise on the sidelines without showing results, was the final nail in the Reform coffin, all but ending the Reform Party as a national organization. Instead, the rump regional Reform organizations would take a cue from the strange world of New York politics and forge political alliances with one of the local major parties, usually the disadvantaged one, in the way of the Conservative and Liberal Parties of New York.
Instead of becoming America’s “Third Party” or displacing one of the Big Two, Reform would have a different future: as a political “tag” for centrist or non-mainstream politicians.
As the two political parties began their shifts to the edges and the national parties repeatedly established “litmus test” criteria for membership, typically on wedge issues like abortion or guns, “putting a stripe on your back” became an easy way for a regional politician to stand out from the national party. A rural Democrat in Wyoming could declare their support for the Second Amendment and their opposition to Abortion Rights and not be cast out of the national party simply by tacking “-Ref” to their name (and indeed the Democratic Party in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, and the Dakotas would basically merge with Reform and keep the National Party at arm’s length going forward). A Republican in New England could likewise express their support for Roe v. Wade and willingness to accept Gun Control measures (and indeed Connecticut, Massachusetts, and other Northeastern Republicans increasingly went Stripe-back, as did many California GOP). Only a handful of “Dedicated Reform” politicians would remain going forward into the 21st Century, such as Maine’s Angus King, who so reliably caucused with the Democrats that they stopped running candidates against him.
The National Reform Party increasingly became, like the Greens or the Libertarians, a “protest vote party” where those wishing to “send a signal to both sides” would cast their ballot. Reform in swing states like Florida or Georgia became a non-starter as razor-thin races discouraged protest voting and encouraged candidates of both parties to run towards the middle. Instead, Reform in these states began to become more of a political action group whose endorsement was coveted by both sides and could make the difference in tight races, or as a pressure group who could use the threat of running a spoiler third candidate as a threat to gain concessions from the likely winner. Reform stopped running Presidential candidates in 2008 after again failing to break 1% of the vote in 2004.
But for the Stripebacks, Reform was their ticket to relevance in increasingly monochrome states, a “free pass” to break with the national caucus on an issue-by-issue basis and publicly call out the actions of the party leadership without fear of losing national party campaign funds. “Reform” could thus continue to raise a stink just by affixing the hyphen to a standing member of one of the two major parties, and remain a force in US politics, even as the National Reform Party faded from relevance.
And having the Reform moniker even allowed one to openly break with their own caucus within the government with less fear of retaliation by the national party. It even occasionally allowed for caucuses of Stripebacks to lead temporary cross-aisle “centrist coalitions” to pass bills that would have otherwise been blocked by the party fringe on either side, which became increasingly critical for compromises on critical but contested areas like budgets and judiciary nominations.
As a result, the ultimate legacy of Ross Perot’s Reform Party and the US Populist Surge of the 1990s became the Stripebacks, and the ultimately Centrist-Populist “Cross-aisle Caucus” that they created.
[1] @jpj1421 and I ran through several scenarios, and, simply put, Gephardt was a hard candidate to beat given the political and social situation. The economy is good, world events are challenging but not catastrophic, there are no major domestic issues for the GOP to hammer on save for standard grievance/identity politics and wedge issues, and there’s no real serious political baggage or scandal here to weigh him down. Jeb Bush and John McCain both lose to him in most matchup scenarios. George W. Bush likely loses too if he’d followed our timeline’s path (he only barely beat Gore in our timeline!). Quayle poled about equal to them, so don’t blame this on Quayle. Simply put, Gore, a very uninspiring candidate, only lost in our timeline by just over 500 votes in a single highly-contested State (Florida) and that was with a huge grassroots surge in Conservative politics following the highly-controversial Clinton Years and the Republican Revolution. Gore, the boring technocrat, just doesn’t garner the hate to drive reactive turnout. And Gephardt has several advantages here in that he’s got “cred” with both Progressives and with Blue Collar Union “Reagan Democrat” types and even wins over lots of Reform Party types thanks to his Trade Skepticism, meaning that the Rust Belt solidly backs him. He also doesn’t alienate moderates. In all, only a Reagan-caliber candidate is going to beat him, and the GOP in 2000 ain’t got one.
[2] In our timeline Clinton and Gingrich, despite all of their public enmity, worked together on compromise legislation including Welfare Reform that led to a $70 billion surplus. In this timeline much of that surplus goes to fund the Green Grown Act, so we end up roughly breaking even.
[3] Similar efforts nearly led to a “grand compromise” between Clinton and Gingrich on entitlement reform, but the Monica Lewinski affair and subsequent impeachment derailed these efforts. See here.
[4] As happened to Perot in 1996 in our timeline.
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Oh, wow; I certainly didn't expect a Gephardt/Richards victory - I don't keep up with the political posts in the TL (primarily because I'm lacking in knowledge, but also due to my post-left anarchist beliefs...which is a discussion for political chat and aside from linking to Wikipedia so that people are aware of what it is, I'll leave it there) but this was definitely unexpected!
mortonofski
Donor
I think the Fischbach revelations would mean that Quayle's campaign was for naughte.
I felt like its bound for two terms and nine years of Dems would garuntee a swing in the other direction at this point.
Not that I'm complaining though.
Not that I'm complaining though.
Maybe next time. Like a lot of actual Americans, I hate it with a passion.
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Having a Republican win in 2000 was never a sure thing. Even Gore came within about 500 votes of winning Florida and did win the popular vote. As i note in the footnote, Gephardt was in a good position vis-à-vis Gore. The GOP could have pulled things off, but it was certainly Gephardt's to lose.
That certainly didn't help, but honestly jpj ran the numbers without knowing the Fishbach thing. He might have given Gep a bigger victory if he'd known.
The GOP held the US presidency for 12 years before Clinton/Gore and dominated for decades in the late 19th Century, so nothing is guaranteed. Though things can and will definitely swing back their way at some point. Stay tuned.
Yep, but as long as it benefits the Powers That Be (why waste money campaigning in New York, California, and Texas when you can spend all your cash in 2 or 3 swing states?) it's invincible.
Noted and edited, thanks!
Will this election make Republicans support eliminating the Electoral College, or at least change the way the Electoral College works?
Desperately Seeking Sita
Chapter 21: Rama, Sita, and Mickey?
A Guest Post for the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Sanjay Patel [1]
As Jack Lindquist is fond of telling people, hard work and talent alone do not ensure success. Much of it is luck and being ready to jump when opportunity presents itself. Opportunity came to me fairly early in my career, so I was very lucky.
I was born in London, but I was very young when we moved to San Bernadino, so I’ve always felt American. I was always fascinated by animation and superheroes. I eventually got a job at Disney in 1996 working with what was at the time called the Disney Digital Division or 3D, before the line between digital and traditional animation blurred into irrelevance. I worked for Joe Ranft on The Secret Life of Toys and Bug Life (I animated some background characters on the former and one of Hopper’s crew, the Jack Nicholson one, on the latter).
But Joe saw me sketching some figures during a meeting. He asked about them. They were King Rama and Ravana, but portrayed as superhero and supervillain. He encouraged me to take the idea to Soft Pitch, figuring that it could make a good Short.
I went to Soft Pitch. Roy Disney, Stan Kinsey, and John Hench were my Three. To my surprise Hench in particular not only liked the idea, he wanted to make a full feature animation based on The Ramayana!
Ok, so the Superhero idea was put on hold for the time being, but I was now a part of a Story and Art Team to make a full animated feature based upon The Ramayana. I pretty much took myself out of directing, for I had only been there just over one year at that point (we happily handed it to Mark Dindal and Mike Gabriel). But Hench agreed to become the executive producer and Mark and I shared a Producer credit and I got an “Adapted By” credit. John, like me, was Hindu, a devotee of the Hindu Saint Ramakrishna and Swami Prabhavananda. He was a member and one-time president of the Vedanta Society of Southern California. Yes, the man most famous for being the Chair of Imagineering and being “the guy that really looked like Walt”, is Hindu. The More you Know, eh?
John Hench at his desk c2000 (Image source Barker Animation)
Well, Disney was at the time trying to expand the diversity of its stories beyond Europe and White America. Over the course of the 1990s they had done Arabic, Japanese, Native American, Chinese, Mesoamerican, and African American heroes and princesses. Also, African if you count The Lion King. India was the next obvious choice, and hadn’t seen any Disney treatment since The Jungle Book. Hench had been specifically on the lookout for Indian stories.
Dumb luck. I would take it!
Something like this (Image source IMDB)
Some were worried that we were delving into something religious. And yes, The Ramayana is a very foundational story in Hinduism and is also taught by Jains, Sikhs, and some Buddhists. It is central to the philosophies of Yoga and Ayurveda. It delves into Hindu religion, spirituality, and folklore, but in the same way Hans Christian Anderson’s stories delve into Christian religion, spirituality, and local Danish folklore. It is a very important story and myth, but it is not wholly sacrosanct like the Bhagavat Gita and there have been thousands of popular retellings of The Ramayana over the centuries for entertainment value alone. I assured them that the Disney retelling, if we treated the characters and story with honor, would be acceptable to most Indians and Hindus.
Still, it is a central cultural foundational story, so that alone makes it a minefield. If we turned noble Rama into a coward or faithful Sita into a slut then we would get angry letters.
And in the end, we did cause some controversy (it was practically inevitable!), but I will speak of that later.
Putting together the storyboards was proving troubling. There are hundreds of versions of The Ramayana to select from, with a central unifying story of Rama and his loyal brother Lakshmana enlisting the Monkey King Hanuman to rescue Rama’s loyal wife Sita from the ten-headed demon king Ravana. But the story was proving hard to fit wholly within a three-act structure since it is quite episodic and with so many versions that can be contradictory at times. John Hench found us help by way of M. Night Shyamalan. Shyamalan was very interested in the project and wrote us a screenplay and then helped with the initial storyboards. John Hench and I shared the Adapted By credit while Shyamalan received the Screenplay credit and even got a Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar nomination. Three Hindus developed the story, two of them Indian. If Invincible was a less than perfect retelling of The Ramayana to some, then nobody could blame it entirely on ignorant WASPs[2].
And yes, we ultimately named it Invincible, the name derived from the rough translation of Rama’s home city of Ayodhya and derived from the many themes of invincibility and inevitability in The Ramayana, such as Rama’s aura of righteous invincibility and the overt seeming invincibility of the demonic Ravana or the inevitability of Sita’s faith and honor. We came to this conclusion after surveys showed there to not be enough US name recognition for The Ramayana, and after rejecting some generic suggestions like “Rama’s Quest” and “Rama and Sita”.
The Ramayana is a story of love, and so we treated it as a labor of love. We had a few questions to answer. What will the art look like? Digital or hand-drawn or hybrid? Do we make Rama blue as is traditional, or would that alienate Western audiences? Who does the music, and do we do traditional music, something Western and familiar to US audiences, or some mix thereof?
Sting and Krishna Das sing “Mountain Hare Krishna”, a traditional mantra; their work here will be in general more upbeat and a bit jazzy, but will have “Mantra Moments”, particularly during travel montages and the like
For the last question, John found Krishna Das, formerly Jeff Kagel and a founder and former lead singer of the band Blue Öyster Cult. Krishna brought in his friend, frequent collaborator, and Yoga enthusiast Sting. Together they wrote the music. They would take inspiration from Bollywood, which was just starting to gain a cult following in the US. We would take the Bollywood approach and make everything a Bollywood style musical with bright colors, choreographed dance sequences, and joyous songs. Sting and Krishna used traditional instrumentation (sitars, shehnais, traditional flutes, tabla and ghatam drums, and the like) and traditional melodies and chord structures, but with a slight Western veneer and some occasional jazzy brass or straight-up swing music reminiscent of The Jungle Book and Aladdin to make things more familiar to Western audiences along with some occasional other Western influences (“Should we add more cowbell?”).
With the Bollywood style, we went for a more traditional stylistic animation based on traditional Indian art, though filtered through Disney. We would hand-sketch but use the Data technology to color and some CG for movement and certain effects. We enlisted Andreas Deja to help animate the immersive, choreographed dance sequences after seeing his amazing work with the ballet scenes in The Swan Princess. We’d even asked him to direct, but he was exhausted after The Poet and the Dragon. Going back to simple animation worked well for him. It became a bright and stylized animation and with so many bright colors we felt no hesitation in making Rama blue, and even commenting upon it.
The loyal brother Lakshmana would narrate, and be the audience surrogate, speaking to the Fourth Wall. “So, I know what you are all asking: why is my brother blue? Well, it all goes back to when great Vishnu drank some poison…”
Our hero Rama would be a Hero, brave and noble, leaving his brother as the noble everyman and Hanuman as comic relief trickster. Sita would be more than a passive damsel in distress, with some of that Action Girl power to her and she fights back against her captor Ravana (Joss Whedon punched up some of her scenes, no pun intended). At one point, for example, fed up with the smarmy come-ons from one of Ravana’s many heads, Sita takes his sword and cuts the head right off! The head of course immediately grows back and says, “Hey, that was wholly unnecessary!”
And yes, we gave Sita more empowerment than in many of the versions of The Ramayana, though still retained her core values of faith, honor, purity, and inherent goodness. Behind the scenes we imagined that she was like a minor avatar for Durga, whose name coincidentally enough roughly translates to “Invincible” or “immovable”, the latter of which is appropriate to a woman whose defining characteristic is staying True no matter what. We made Rama and particularly his brother Lakshmana a little more human and a little less perfect, allowing them to be tricked and distracted rather than dump all of the blindness to Ravana’s deceptions onto Sita, though we retained their core values of bravery, honor, decency, and righteousness. Some traditional Indian men did not like this change, but many women, particularly younger Indian women, did.
Night put everything into a rather straightforward three-act narrative wholly based around the events of the Ramayana: Ravana the ten-headed king kidnaps Sita, Rama and Lakshmana set out to rescue her, enlist the Monkey King Hanuman (who uses his magic and cleverness to sneak in and communicate and coordinate with Sita), and build up an army for the big final battle with Ravana’s army of rakshasas and demons, setting up the final fight and defeat of Ravana, who proves less invincible than he believed. It ends, per tradition, with the rescue of Sita, who then has to break through Rama’s pride and suspicions by proving her faithfulness and honor, at one point by literally walking through flames unscathed before he can accept her faithfulness…and then going full “Indian Mother” and letting him have it for even questioning her faith.
We cut out some of the many side quests (like some of the battles with lesser “sub boss” demons, though we did have a couple such fights, allowing us to slip in a “your Princess is in another castle” joke) and focused mainly on the kidnapping and rescue of Sita. We told much of the story in songs, like “A Love that’s True” and its two reprises, the forlorn “Sita’s Lament”, Hanuman’s upbeat and jazzy “Monkey Business” (with shades of “I Wan’na Be Like You”[3] from The Jungle Book), and of course Ravana’s epic villain song “Getting Ahead in the Game”.
Hanuman working on some Monkey Business (Image source Mind Controversy)
But with M. Night Shyamalan writing, you know that nothing is straight forward, so he added little affectations like shapeshifting rakshasas who assume the look of our heroes to sew discord, some misheard statements, apparent double-crosses, misdirection, and other little twists and turns to mix everything up. Some traditionalists didn’t like it, but most enjoyed it as a fun and fresh take on the classic story that really livened things up.
It was colorful, it was dynamic, it was frankly the most fun and lively Disney feature since Aladdin, if do say so myself.
Finally, we had fun with the casting. We pulled in Bollywood actors Aamir Khan and Karisma Kapoor as Rama and Sita, as the two had recently made a splash in Bollywood Rom-Coms, and found Indian American comedian Aasif Mandvi for the narrational role of Lakshmana. Frank Welker “voiced” Sita’s loyal obligatory animal companion, the vulture Jatayu (though we got some pushback from management on the vulture. “Can’t you make him an eagle or something?”). More controversially, we cast Hank Azaria for Hanuman. The choice was beloved back then (he even won an Annie for his voice work) but has since been met with accusations of “Brown Voice”, although I blame much of that on his association with the problematic Apu on Nuclear Family. I thought that he did fine as Hanuman, since he was playing a Monkey, not an Indian.
Another role that would eventually get some “Brown Voice” accusations was Gary Oldman[4], who we cast as the villainous Ravana, though not as many accusations there and usually only from white people on the internet. In fact, most Indians saw the casting as subtly anticolonial by having a British actor as the evil usurping king[5], which was helped by him giving one of the heads a British Raj accent. And let’s face it, he is The Man of a Thousand Accents and thus able to give each of his many heads a different voice and accent, from British Lord to Cockney to New York Italian to John Wayne to amazingly accurate Delhi, Punjabi, and Bengali accents. I like to think of him as “our Robin Williams”. His comedic timing was flawless, which surprised people who best know him from his dramatic roles. Hearing him harmonize with himself on “Getting Ahead in the Game”, which they did by looping, is just incredible.
Seriously, there is no end to his ability with accents; you should hear his New York Italian vs. New York Irish vs. New York Jewish from Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me! (time mark 5:00)
And yes, we very deliberately borrowed from Aladdin in tone and pace, albeit through a Bollywood Romantic Comedy Musical lens rather than Old Broadway, despite Night’s desire to make things more mysterious and dramatic. Instead, we were one-part Bollywood Action-Romance Extravaganza, one-part Buddy Cop flick between Rama and Lakshmana, one-part twisting French Farce, one-part Rescue Story, one-part affectionate parody of all of that, and several parts just fun and exciting. The Fourth Wall meant nothing and modern pop culture references abounded. Like Aladdin we had a few deliberate and self-aware anachronisms. We loaded things with physical comedy and just a touch of lunacy. And by going over the top in that way we ironically avoided a lot of potential controversy for the adaption, since the slightly tongue-in-cheek and self-aware nature gave us a built-in out for any changes or modernizations. I think that a lot of Indians were amused by the playful but reverent subversions of their expectations. This was a fun story adapted from The Ramayana, not a straight telling. So just sit down, relax, and enjoy the show!
The Final Battle wont be this bloody, obviously (Image source Hinduamerican.org)
And for the most part the critics loved it and audiences, particularly kids and teens, loved it. We were the best performing Disney animated feature since The Lion King, breaking $520 million worldwide, despite strong competition from Filmation and even self-competition from the lingering success of Aardman’s Tortoise V. Hare. Perhaps had we debuted unchallenged we would have broken $700 million. We were nominated for the Best Animated Feature Oscar (narrowly losing to Tortoise v. Hare) and were even nominated for the Golden Globe for Best Musical or Comedy. Annie loved us.
And I thank the joy and color and movement of it all for that. The shifting and twisting farcical aspects of Night’s tale played well with the movement and mania, and the story itself is timeless and full of fun things like a tricky and chaotic monkey king, an over-the-top villain, a comedic but admirable fourth wall breaking sidekick (Lakshmana), and lots of action and romance. But if I can say one thing about Invincible it’s that it is a fun movie, and was as fun to produce as it is to watch.
And it was one hell of a career breakout moment!
[1] Real person. Best known in our timeline for the Pixar Short Sanjay's Super Team (2015). He also recently released an illustrated book Ramayana: Divine Loophole.
[2] But you can blame any misconceptions or mistakes in this fictional retelling on the ignorant white dude known as me.
[3] As an Easter Egg, Hanuman at one point swing-dances with an Orangutan never explicitly stated to be Louis, even recycling the dance moves of that part Woolie Reitherman style as an homage and in-joke.
[4] Hat tip to Mrs. Khan here, who has fittingly chosen the Pseudonym “Chakra Khan”. She also steered me to Krishna Das and Sting and also helped figure out how to adapt The Ramayana in a distinctly Disney way while trying to do justice by the original story and not be too much of a “cultural appropriation”.
[5] They also give him a sympathetic portrayal and reveal his tragic backstory that corrupts him, which plays well with places like Sri Lanka and parts of South India where Ravana is seen as a pious king and heroic defender.
A Guest Post for the Riding with the Mouse Net-log by animator Sanjay Patel [1]
As Jack Lindquist is fond of telling people, hard work and talent alone do not ensure success. Much of it is luck and being ready to jump when opportunity presents itself. Opportunity came to me fairly early in my career, so I was very lucky.
I was born in London, but I was very young when we moved to San Bernadino, so I’ve always felt American. I was always fascinated by animation and superheroes. I eventually got a job at Disney in 1996 working with what was at the time called the Disney Digital Division or 3D, before the line between digital and traditional animation blurred into irrelevance. I worked for Joe Ranft on The Secret Life of Toys and Bug Life (I animated some background characters on the former and one of Hopper’s crew, the Jack Nicholson one, on the latter).
But Joe saw me sketching some figures during a meeting. He asked about them. They were King Rama and Ravana, but portrayed as superhero and supervillain. He encouraged me to take the idea to Soft Pitch, figuring that it could make a good Short.
I went to Soft Pitch. Roy Disney, Stan Kinsey, and John Hench were my Three. To my surprise Hench in particular not only liked the idea, he wanted to make a full feature animation based on The Ramayana!
Ok, so the Superhero idea was put on hold for the time being, but I was now a part of a Story and Art Team to make a full animated feature based upon The Ramayana. I pretty much took myself out of directing, for I had only been there just over one year at that point (we happily handed it to Mark Dindal and Mike Gabriel). But Hench agreed to become the executive producer and Mark and I shared a Producer credit and I got an “Adapted By” credit. John, like me, was Hindu, a devotee of the Hindu Saint Ramakrishna and Swami Prabhavananda. He was a member and one-time president of the Vedanta Society of Southern California. Yes, the man most famous for being the Chair of Imagineering and being “the guy that really looked like Walt”, is Hindu. The More you Know, eh?
John Hench at his desk c2000 (Image source Barker Animation)
Well, Disney was at the time trying to expand the diversity of its stories beyond Europe and White America. Over the course of the 1990s they had done Arabic, Japanese, Native American, Chinese, Mesoamerican, and African American heroes and princesses. Also, African if you count The Lion King. India was the next obvious choice, and hadn’t seen any Disney treatment since The Jungle Book. Hench had been specifically on the lookout for Indian stories.
Dumb luck. I would take it!
Something like this (Image source IMDB)
Some were worried that we were delving into something religious. And yes, The Ramayana is a very foundational story in Hinduism and is also taught by Jains, Sikhs, and some Buddhists. It is central to the philosophies of Yoga and Ayurveda. It delves into Hindu religion, spirituality, and folklore, but in the same way Hans Christian Anderson’s stories delve into Christian religion, spirituality, and local Danish folklore. It is a very important story and myth, but it is not wholly sacrosanct like the Bhagavat Gita and there have been thousands of popular retellings of The Ramayana over the centuries for entertainment value alone. I assured them that the Disney retelling, if we treated the characters and story with honor, would be acceptable to most Indians and Hindus.
Still, it is a central cultural foundational story, so that alone makes it a minefield. If we turned noble Rama into a coward or faithful Sita into a slut then we would get angry letters.
And in the end, we did cause some controversy (it was practically inevitable!), but I will speak of that later.
Putting together the storyboards was proving troubling. There are hundreds of versions of The Ramayana to select from, with a central unifying story of Rama and his loyal brother Lakshmana enlisting the Monkey King Hanuman to rescue Rama’s loyal wife Sita from the ten-headed demon king Ravana. But the story was proving hard to fit wholly within a three-act structure since it is quite episodic and with so many versions that can be contradictory at times. John Hench found us help by way of M. Night Shyamalan. Shyamalan was very interested in the project and wrote us a screenplay and then helped with the initial storyboards. John Hench and I shared the Adapted By credit while Shyamalan received the Screenplay credit and even got a Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar nomination. Three Hindus developed the story, two of them Indian. If Invincible was a less than perfect retelling of The Ramayana to some, then nobody could blame it entirely on ignorant WASPs[2].
And yes, we ultimately named it Invincible, the name derived from the rough translation of Rama’s home city of Ayodhya and derived from the many themes of invincibility and inevitability in The Ramayana, such as Rama’s aura of righteous invincibility and the overt seeming invincibility of the demonic Ravana or the inevitability of Sita’s faith and honor. We came to this conclusion after surveys showed there to not be enough US name recognition for The Ramayana, and after rejecting some generic suggestions like “Rama’s Quest” and “Rama and Sita”.
The Ramayana is a story of love, and so we treated it as a labor of love. We had a few questions to answer. What will the art look like? Digital or hand-drawn or hybrid? Do we make Rama blue as is traditional, or would that alienate Western audiences? Who does the music, and do we do traditional music, something Western and familiar to US audiences, or some mix thereof?
For the last question, John found Krishna Das, formerly Jeff Kagel and a founder and former lead singer of the band Blue Öyster Cult. Krishna brought in his friend, frequent collaborator, and Yoga enthusiast Sting. Together they wrote the music. They would take inspiration from Bollywood, which was just starting to gain a cult following in the US. We would take the Bollywood approach and make everything a Bollywood style musical with bright colors, choreographed dance sequences, and joyous songs. Sting and Krishna used traditional instrumentation (sitars, shehnais, traditional flutes, tabla and ghatam drums, and the like) and traditional melodies and chord structures, but with a slight Western veneer and some occasional jazzy brass or straight-up swing music reminiscent of The Jungle Book and Aladdin to make things more familiar to Western audiences along with some occasional other Western influences (“Should we add more cowbell?”).
With the Bollywood style, we went for a more traditional stylistic animation based on traditional Indian art, though filtered through Disney. We would hand-sketch but use the Data technology to color and some CG for movement and certain effects. We enlisted Andreas Deja to help animate the immersive, choreographed dance sequences after seeing his amazing work with the ballet scenes in The Swan Princess. We’d even asked him to direct, but he was exhausted after The Poet and the Dragon. Going back to simple animation worked well for him. It became a bright and stylized animation and with so many bright colors we felt no hesitation in making Rama blue, and even commenting upon it.
The loyal brother Lakshmana would narrate, and be the audience surrogate, speaking to the Fourth Wall. “So, I know what you are all asking: why is my brother blue? Well, it all goes back to when great Vishnu drank some poison…”
Our hero Rama would be a Hero, brave and noble, leaving his brother as the noble everyman and Hanuman as comic relief trickster. Sita would be more than a passive damsel in distress, with some of that Action Girl power to her and she fights back against her captor Ravana (Joss Whedon punched up some of her scenes, no pun intended). At one point, for example, fed up with the smarmy come-ons from one of Ravana’s many heads, Sita takes his sword and cuts the head right off! The head of course immediately grows back and says, “Hey, that was wholly unnecessary!”
And yes, we gave Sita more empowerment than in many of the versions of The Ramayana, though still retained her core values of faith, honor, purity, and inherent goodness. Behind the scenes we imagined that she was like a minor avatar for Durga, whose name coincidentally enough roughly translates to “Invincible” or “immovable”, the latter of which is appropriate to a woman whose defining characteristic is staying True no matter what. We made Rama and particularly his brother Lakshmana a little more human and a little less perfect, allowing them to be tricked and distracted rather than dump all of the blindness to Ravana’s deceptions onto Sita, though we retained their core values of bravery, honor, decency, and righteousness. Some traditional Indian men did not like this change, but many women, particularly younger Indian women, did.
Night put everything into a rather straightforward three-act narrative wholly based around the events of the Ramayana: Ravana the ten-headed king kidnaps Sita, Rama and Lakshmana set out to rescue her, enlist the Monkey King Hanuman (who uses his magic and cleverness to sneak in and communicate and coordinate with Sita), and build up an army for the big final battle with Ravana’s army of rakshasas and demons, setting up the final fight and defeat of Ravana, who proves less invincible than he believed. It ends, per tradition, with the rescue of Sita, who then has to break through Rama’s pride and suspicions by proving her faithfulness and honor, at one point by literally walking through flames unscathed before he can accept her faithfulness…and then going full “Indian Mother” and letting him have it for even questioning her faith.
We cut out some of the many side quests (like some of the battles with lesser “sub boss” demons, though we did have a couple such fights, allowing us to slip in a “your Princess is in another castle” joke) and focused mainly on the kidnapping and rescue of Sita. We told much of the story in songs, like “A Love that’s True” and its two reprises, the forlorn “Sita’s Lament”, Hanuman’s upbeat and jazzy “Monkey Business” (with shades of “I Wan’na Be Like You”[3] from The Jungle Book), and of course Ravana’s epic villain song “Getting Ahead in the Game”.
Hanuman working on some Monkey Business (Image source Mind Controversy)
But with M. Night Shyamalan writing, you know that nothing is straight forward, so he added little affectations like shapeshifting rakshasas who assume the look of our heroes to sew discord, some misheard statements, apparent double-crosses, misdirection, and other little twists and turns to mix everything up. Some traditionalists didn’t like it, but most enjoyed it as a fun and fresh take on the classic story that really livened things up.
It was colorful, it was dynamic, it was frankly the most fun and lively Disney feature since Aladdin, if do say so myself.
Finally, we had fun with the casting. We pulled in Bollywood actors Aamir Khan and Karisma Kapoor as Rama and Sita, as the two had recently made a splash in Bollywood Rom-Coms, and found Indian American comedian Aasif Mandvi for the narrational role of Lakshmana. Frank Welker “voiced” Sita’s loyal obligatory animal companion, the vulture Jatayu (though we got some pushback from management on the vulture. “Can’t you make him an eagle or something?”). More controversially, we cast Hank Azaria for Hanuman. The choice was beloved back then (he even won an Annie for his voice work) but has since been met with accusations of “Brown Voice”, although I blame much of that on his association with the problematic Apu on Nuclear Family. I thought that he did fine as Hanuman, since he was playing a Monkey, not an Indian.
Another role that would eventually get some “Brown Voice” accusations was Gary Oldman[4], who we cast as the villainous Ravana, though not as many accusations there and usually only from white people on the internet. In fact, most Indians saw the casting as subtly anticolonial by having a British actor as the evil usurping king[5], which was helped by him giving one of the heads a British Raj accent. And let’s face it, he is The Man of a Thousand Accents and thus able to give each of his many heads a different voice and accent, from British Lord to Cockney to New York Italian to John Wayne to amazingly accurate Delhi, Punjabi, and Bengali accents. I like to think of him as “our Robin Williams”. His comedic timing was flawless, which surprised people who best know him from his dramatic roles. Hearing him harmonize with himself on “Getting Ahead in the Game”, which they did by looping, is just incredible.
And yes, we very deliberately borrowed from Aladdin in tone and pace, albeit through a Bollywood Romantic Comedy Musical lens rather than Old Broadway, despite Night’s desire to make things more mysterious and dramatic. Instead, we were one-part Bollywood Action-Romance Extravaganza, one-part Buddy Cop flick between Rama and Lakshmana, one-part twisting French Farce, one-part Rescue Story, one-part affectionate parody of all of that, and several parts just fun and exciting. The Fourth Wall meant nothing and modern pop culture references abounded. Like Aladdin we had a few deliberate and self-aware anachronisms. We loaded things with physical comedy and just a touch of lunacy. And by going over the top in that way we ironically avoided a lot of potential controversy for the adaption, since the slightly tongue-in-cheek and self-aware nature gave us a built-in out for any changes or modernizations. I think that a lot of Indians were amused by the playful but reverent subversions of their expectations. This was a fun story adapted from The Ramayana, not a straight telling. So just sit down, relax, and enjoy the show!
The Final Battle wont be this bloody, obviously (Image source Hinduamerican.org)
And for the most part the critics loved it and audiences, particularly kids and teens, loved it. We were the best performing Disney animated feature since The Lion King, breaking $520 million worldwide, despite strong competition from Filmation and even self-competition from the lingering success of Aardman’s Tortoise V. Hare. Perhaps had we debuted unchallenged we would have broken $700 million. We were nominated for the Best Animated Feature Oscar (narrowly losing to Tortoise v. Hare) and were even nominated for the Golden Globe for Best Musical or Comedy. Annie loved us.
And I thank the joy and color and movement of it all for that. The shifting and twisting farcical aspects of Night’s tale played well with the movement and mania, and the story itself is timeless and full of fun things like a tricky and chaotic monkey king, an over-the-top villain, a comedic but admirable fourth wall breaking sidekick (Lakshmana), and lots of action and romance. But if I can say one thing about Invincible it’s that it is a fun movie, and was as fun to produce as it is to watch.
And it was one hell of a career breakout moment!
[1] Real person. Best known in our timeline for the Pixar Short Sanjay's Super Team (2015). He also recently released an illustrated book Ramayana: Divine Loophole.
[2] But you can blame any misconceptions or mistakes in this fictional retelling on the ignorant white dude known as me.
[3] As an Easter Egg, Hanuman at one point swing-dances with an Orangutan never explicitly stated to be Louis, even recycling the dance moves of that part Woolie Reitherman style as an homage and in-joke.
[4] Hat tip to Mrs. Khan here, who has fittingly chosen the Pseudonym “Chakra Khan”. She also steered me to Krishna Das and Sting and also helped figure out how to adapt The Ramayana in a distinctly Disney way while trying to do justice by the original story and not be too much of a “cultural appropriation”.
[5] They also give him a sympathetic portrayal and reveal his tragic backstory that corrupts him, which plays well with places like Sri Lanka and parts of South India where Ravana is seen as a pious king and heroic defender.
As someone whoès ethnically Indian, I approve. I was even offered rewrites and feedback, though as I know squat about hindu culture and the Ravana I didn't have much to offer, save suggesting Salman Khan for a role.
This sounds great!
Obviously, we're seeing this from Sanjay's perspective... but here is something interesting - whilst Apu has been criticized by Indian-Americans or rather South Asian Americans OTL, he has quite a fandom in India itself (and he seems quite popular among first-generation immigrants), because he's among the few Indian characters on TV - and, for his time, wasn't a stereotype (he wasn't overtly submissive, defined by religion and was as flawed and quirky as everyone else).
Now, obviously, everyone experiences prejudice differently... and obviously, as a white guy, I cannot - and should not - speak for these groups - I am merely going by what I have heard from people of South Asian descent I have encountered.
Well, if it takes being a "Disney animal sidekick" to make the Asian vulture crisis a bit more noticed ITTL (seriously, it just went unreported OTL), I'm glad Sanjay and co ultimately won out...
Obviously, we're seeing this from Sanjay's perspective... but here is something interesting - whilst Apu has been criticized by Indian-Americans or rather South Asian Americans OTL, he has quite a fandom in India itself (and he seems quite popular among first-generation immigrants), because he's among the few Indian characters on TV - and, for his time, wasn't a stereotype (he wasn't overtly submissive, defined by religion and was as flawed and quirky as everyone else).
Now, obviously, everyone experiences prejudice differently... and obviously, as a white guy, I cannot - and should not - speak for these groups - I am merely going by what I have heard from people of South Asian descent I have encountered.
Well, if it takes being a "Disney animal sidekick" to make the Asian vulture crisis a bit more noticed ITTL (seriously, it just went unreported OTL), I'm glad Sanjay and co ultimately won out...
Fun fact: in an earlier draft it was suggested one title be Rama Lama Ding Dong. Yes it was rejected immidiately.
Very commendable out of Sanjay and Disney Animation. An excellent part of the Disney Animated Canon for sure.
I can see Animal Kingdom, Disneyland/Magic Kingdom, EPCOT, and Disneytown London go nuts over this film with special promotions and walkarounds.
I wonder if this approach will be solidified in future Disney films after the success of Heart of Ice, City of Gold, and Invincible.
Frog Prepares to Jump
Chapter 19: New Millennium, New Challenges (Cont’d)
Excerpt from Jim Henson: Storyteller, an authorized biography by Jay O’Brian
By the end of 2000, Disney’s stock price had started to stabilize and started to show signs of a sustained recovery, ultimately reaching its nadir in March of 2001 and starting to regain ground quickly from there. It was doubtful that Genie would ever recapture its once vaunted #2 spot behind Leap as “America’s Online Portal”, particularly as such portals became increasingly unnecessary with the continued market penetration of high-speed internet connections. But Imagine, Inc., remained a player in high tech hardware and software, and the Viewpoint video hosting site maintained a good market share against Me-TV and Vidzz. But Disney’s old core businesses, the parks and the studios, were maintaining excellent market share and stocks were trending back upwards, perhaps after an artificial period of inflated value.
Jim and Stan Kinsey had weathered shareholder anger after the stock drop, and Jim had to personally intervene with Bass and Marriott and in particular Jack Welsh, but in truth all knew that Genie had fallen victim to a stock bubble that none of them had predicted, the directors included, and that Jim and Stan had done an admirable job in dealing with the crisis.
And in truth, resort visitations were up, the studios and NBC were performing well, with NBC solidly retaking the #1 slot over the February Sweeps following the big Rent event-episode where Angel died of AIDS. Sparky and Invincible had performed excellently, making Roy happy, the Marvel films had done well, in particular The Avengers and X-Men 3: Rise of the Phoenix. Stan Lee and Jim Shooter were very sanguine about the upcoming major universal crossover event that would see the full impact of the “Phoenix Force”.
As such, when Jim announced his full intention to retire by the spring of 2001, the board reluctantly agreed not to oppose him, ultimately giving him a standing ovation when he formally ended the meeting. Jim had recommended that Stan Kinsey take over as Chairman as well as CEO, but by this point the two positions had diverged significantly and each was in and of itself a full-time position. Instead, the board looked for a new Chair from outside the company.
Fans reacted to the announcement with shock. Many were sad, but many others happy to see him off on a well-deserved retirement. Jim’s face had become nearly as inseparable from the Disney brand as Walt’s, as loathe as the Disney family was to admit this. And not having Jim at the helm seemed as surreal to Disney fans as having Steve Whitmire voicing Kermit still seemed surreal to first generation Muppets fans. Jim was flattered by the outpouring of affection and the many letters and emails received, or the compilation of “Thank You, Jim” clips compiled by Jack Lindquist from the Disney Park visitors during his “Jim Henson Farewell Bash” promotional.
The press in general made quite the story from it as well, with various retrospectives and interviews that traced Jim’s career not just at Disney but in many cases all the way back to Sam and Friends, which Jim was happy to note usually noticed Jane’s critical hand in the production. Jim found himself sitting for numerous interviews with various channels and newspapers and even a couple of netsites. Most celebrated his time, making note of his “calm and inspiring leadership” though the ups-and-downs of the 1980s and 1990s. Walt Disney Miller and Tim Disney brought him on for one last guest hosting of The Wonderful World of Disney, for which they brought back the Disney’s World of Magic title and opening credits.
Word of Jim’s announced retirement played slightly differently in the conservative media sphere, however, as Jim’s critics as he called them (he could never refer to them as his “enemies” however bitter and antagonistic that they were) celebrated the announcement, some of them proclaiming him to have been “run out” due to the stock market crash. While Talk Radio parroted this “Kermit Fired” narrative, the Disney board reiterated their support for him and their preference that he had chosen to remain Chairman for a few years longer, and Wall Street and those in the know remained fully aware that Henson was leaving of his own volition for reasons that had nothing to do with the Dot-Com Bubble. Jim’s announced retirement actually sent stocks lower that day.
Jim, however, took it all in stride. After all, he’d just acquired a couple hundred acres in the hills near Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a retirement plan of his own.
Select Pictures Released by Walt Disney Studios, 1999-2000
Stocks at a Glance: Walt Disney Entertainment (DIS)
January 4th, 2001
Stock price: $26.04
Major Shareholders: Henson family (21.4%), Disney-Miller family (14.5%), Roy E. Disney family (14.4%), General Electric (11.2%), Bass Brothers (6.5%), Bill Marriott (6.1%), Good Shepherd Alliance (3.7%), Liberty Holdings (3%), Apple Comp. (2.3%), Lucasfilm Ltd. (1.8%), Amblin Entertainment (1.5%), Suspected “Knights Errant” (4.8%), Other (8.8%)
Outstanding shares: 1,495.8 million
The Board of Directors for the Walt Disney Entertainment Company, January 2001:
Stanley Kinsey, CEO
James M. “Jim” Henson, Chairman and CCO
Thomas “Tom” Wilhite, President and COO
Roy E. Disney, Vice Chairman and President, Disney-MGM Studios
Bob Wright (General Electric)
Al Gottesman (President, Henson Arts Holdings)
Dianne Disney Miller (Partner, Retlaw Enterprises)
Peter Dailey (former US ambassador to Ireland and Roy Disney’s brother-in-law)
Alfred Attilio “Al” Checchi (representing Marriott International)
George W. Bush (representing the interests of the Good Shepherd Alliance)
William “Bill” Ackman (Gotham Partners; representing the interests of Liberty Holdings)
Advisory Board Members (non-voting, ad-hoc attendance):
E. Cardon “Card” Walker, Chairman Emeritus
Steven Spielberg (Partner, Amblin Entertainment)
Steve Jobs (CEO & President of Apple Computer, Inc.)
George Lucas (CEO of Lucasfilm, Ltd.)
J. Willard “Bill” Marriott, Jr. (CEO of Marriott International)
Ray Watson, Chairman Emeritus (former head of the Irvine Company)
Caroline Ahmanson (head and founder of Caroline Leonetti Ltd.)
Philip Hawley (Carter Hawley Hale)
Samuel Williamson (senior partner, Hufstedler, Miller, Carson, & Beardsley)
Stan Lee (Chairman of Marvel Entertainment)
Ronald “Ron” Miller (CEO Emeritus)
Frank Wells (Chairman and CEO Emeritus)
Jane A. Nebel Henson (Chairwoman, Henson Arts)
The Disney Executive Committee:
Stan Kinsey, CEO
James M. “Jim” Henson, Chairman and CCO
Thomas “Tom” Wilhite, President and COO
Bernard “Bernie” Brillstein, Chairman of Disney-NBC Television
John Hench, President, Walt Disney Imagineering Workshop
Roy E. Disney, President, Walt Disney Studios
Excerpt from Jim Henson: Storyteller, an authorized biography by Jay O’Brian
By the end of 2000, Disney’s stock price had started to stabilize and started to show signs of a sustained recovery, ultimately reaching its nadir in March of 2001 and starting to regain ground quickly from there. It was doubtful that Genie would ever recapture its once vaunted #2 spot behind Leap as “America’s Online Portal”, particularly as such portals became increasingly unnecessary with the continued market penetration of high-speed internet connections. But Imagine, Inc., remained a player in high tech hardware and software, and the Viewpoint video hosting site maintained a good market share against Me-TV and Vidzz. But Disney’s old core businesses, the parks and the studios, were maintaining excellent market share and stocks were trending back upwards, perhaps after an artificial period of inflated value.
Jim and Stan Kinsey had weathered shareholder anger after the stock drop, and Jim had to personally intervene with Bass and Marriott and in particular Jack Welsh, but in truth all knew that Genie had fallen victim to a stock bubble that none of them had predicted, the directors included, and that Jim and Stan had done an admirable job in dealing with the crisis.
And in truth, resort visitations were up, the studios and NBC were performing well, with NBC solidly retaking the #1 slot over the February Sweeps following the big Rent event-episode where Angel died of AIDS. Sparky and Invincible had performed excellently, making Roy happy, the Marvel films had done well, in particular The Avengers and X-Men 3: Rise of the Phoenix. Stan Lee and Jim Shooter were very sanguine about the upcoming major universal crossover event that would see the full impact of the “Phoenix Force”.
As such, when Jim announced his full intention to retire by the spring of 2001, the board reluctantly agreed not to oppose him, ultimately giving him a standing ovation when he formally ended the meeting. Jim had recommended that Stan Kinsey take over as Chairman as well as CEO, but by this point the two positions had diverged significantly and each was in and of itself a full-time position. Instead, the board looked for a new Chair from outside the company.
Fans reacted to the announcement with shock. Many were sad, but many others happy to see him off on a well-deserved retirement. Jim’s face had become nearly as inseparable from the Disney brand as Walt’s, as loathe as the Disney family was to admit this. And not having Jim at the helm seemed as surreal to Disney fans as having Steve Whitmire voicing Kermit still seemed surreal to first generation Muppets fans. Jim was flattered by the outpouring of affection and the many letters and emails received, or the compilation of “Thank You, Jim” clips compiled by Jack Lindquist from the Disney Park visitors during his “Jim Henson Farewell Bash” promotional.
The press in general made quite the story from it as well, with various retrospectives and interviews that traced Jim’s career not just at Disney but in many cases all the way back to Sam and Friends, which Jim was happy to note usually noticed Jane’s critical hand in the production. Jim found himself sitting for numerous interviews with various channels and newspapers and even a couple of netsites. Most celebrated his time, making note of his “calm and inspiring leadership” though the ups-and-downs of the 1980s and 1990s. Walt Disney Miller and Tim Disney brought him on for one last guest hosting of The Wonderful World of Disney, for which they brought back the Disney’s World of Magic title and opening credits.
Word of Jim’s announced retirement played slightly differently in the conservative media sphere, however, as Jim’s critics as he called them (he could never refer to them as his “enemies” however bitter and antagonistic that they were) celebrated the announcement, some of them proclaiming him to have been “run out” due to the stock market crash. While Talk Radio parroted this “Kermit Fired” narrative, the Disney board reiterated their support for him and their preference that he had chosen to remain Chairman for a few years longer, and Wall Street and those in the know remained fully aware that Henson was leaving of his own volition for reasons that had nothing to do with the Dot-Com Bubble. Jim’s announced retirement actually sent stocks lower that day.
Jim, however, took it all in stride. After all, he’d just acquired a couple hundred acres in the hills near Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a retirement plan of his own.
* * *
Select Pictures Released by Walt Disney Studios, 1999-2000
| Release date | Title | Studio label | Co-production with |
| January 15, 1999 | Sober | MGM | Warner Brothers (early production), Sikelia Productions, Pacific Partners |
| February 12, 1999 | The Bamboo Princess [Re-Release] | Walt Disney Pictures | Studio Ghibli |
| February 26, 1999 | Coraline [W/ Short Spider and Fly] | Fantasia Films | Skeleton Crew Productions, Pacific Partners |
| March 12, 1999 | Bring in 'Da Noise, Bring in 'Da Funk | MGM | 40 Acres and a Mule Productions, Pacific Partners |
| April 9, 1999 | The Next Big Thing | Hyperion | Pacific Partners |
| April 16, 1999 | An Alien in the Family [Re-Release] | Walt Disney Pictures | |
| May 19, 1999 | The Mighty Thor | MGM | Marvel Productions, Pacific Partners |
| June 16, 1999 | Bug Life | Walt Disney Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| July 2, 1999 | Captain America | MGM | Marvel Productions, Pacific Partners |
| July 16, 1999 | American Beauty | Hyperion Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| August 6, 1999 | Vinland | MGM | Pacific Partners |
| August 20, 1999 | Moonwalker: The Michael Jackson Story | MGM | Amblin Entertainment, Pacific Partners |
| September 3, 1999 | Vote Kinky! | Hyperion Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| September 17, 1999 | Shrek! [Re-Release] | Walt Disney Pictures | |
| October 15, 1999 | Elmo in Grouchtown [w/ Short Waggle Wonderland] | Walt Disney Pictures | Children’s Television Workshop, Pacific Partners |
| November 25, 1999 | City of the Sun [w/ Short Chechen and Chacah] | Walt Disney Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| December 17, 1999 | Artifice | Fantasia Films | Amblin Entertainment, Pacific Partners |
| January 12, 2000 | Fantasia [Re-Release] | WED Signature | |
| January 26, 2000 | Ballers | Hyperion Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| February 11, 2000 | Musicana [Re-Release] | WED Signature | |
| March 3, 2000 | Disco Kings | Hyperion Pictures | As You Wish Entertainment, Pacific Partners |
| March 17, 2000 | The Matrix | Fantasia Films | Skeleton Crew Productions, Pacific Partners |
| April 9, 2000 | Tortoise V. Hare | Penguin Pictures | Aardman Entertainment, Buena Vista Entertainment (US Distribution) |
| April 21, 2000 | Americana | WED Signature | Pacific Partners |
| May 9, 2000 | Iron Man | MGM | Marvel Productions, Pacific Partners |
| May 20, 2000 | Sparky | Walt Disney Productions | Pacific Partners |
| June 7, 2000 | X3: Rise of the Phoenix | MGM | Marvel Studios, Pacific Partners |
| June 21, 2000 | Susurrus | Fantasia Films | Skeleton Crew Productions, Pacific Partners |
| July 1, 2000 | Journey to the Center of the Earth | Walt Disney Pictures | Amblimation, Pacific Partners |
| July 15, 2000 | Superbia | MGM | Pacific Partners |
| August 4, 2000 | The Little Mermaid [Re-Release] | Walt Disney Pictures | |
| August 7, 2000 | The Avengers | MGM | Marvel Studios, Pacific Partners |
| September 1, 2000 | Souls in Flux | Hyperion Pictures | As You Wish Entertainment, Pacific Partners |
| September 22, 2000 | Untouchable | Wildside Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| October 13, 2000 | Cutting Remarks | Hyperion Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| November 11, 2000 | War Stories [Re-Release] | WED Signature | |
| November 23, 2000 | Invincible | Walt Disney Pictures | Pacific Partners |
| December 15, 2000 | Dragonlance: The Legacy of Raistlin | Fantasia Films | Marvel Productions, Pacific Partners |
* * *
Stocks at a Glance: Walt Disney Entertainment (DIS)
January 4th, 2001
Stock price: $26.04
Major Shareholders: Henson family (21.4%), Disney-Miller family (14.5%), Roy E. Disney family (14.4%), General Electric (11.2%), Bass Brothers (6.5%), Bill Marriott (6.1%), Good Shepherd Alliance (3.7%), Liberty Holdings (3%), Apple Comp. (2.3%), Lucasfilm Ltd. (1.8%), Amblin Entertainment (1.5%), Suspected “Knights Errant” (4.8%), Other (8.8%)
Outstanding shares: 1,495.8 million
The Board of Directors for the Walt Disney Entertainment Company, January 2001:
Stanley Kinsey, CEO
James M. “Jim” Henson, Chairman and CCO
Thomas “Tom” Wilhite, President and COO
Roy E. Disney, Vice Chairman and President, Disney-MGM Studios
Bob Wright (General Electric)
Al Gottesman (President, Henson Arts Holdings)
Dianne Disney Miller (Partner, Retlaw Enterprises)
Peter Dailey (former US ambassador to Ireland and Roy Disney’s brother-in-law)
Alfred Attilio “Al” Checchi (representing Marriott International)
George W. Bush (representing the interests of the Good Shepherd Alliance)
William “Bill” Ackman (Gotham Partners; representing the interests of Liberty Holdings)
Advisory Board Members (non-voting, ad-hoc attendance):
E. Cardon “Card” Walker, Chairman Emeritus
Steven Spielberg (Partner, Amblin Entertainment)
Steve Jobs (CEO & President of Apple Computer, Inc.)
George Lucas (CEO of Lucasfilm, Ltd.)
J. Willard “Bill” Marriott, Jr. (CEO of Marriott International)
Ray Watson, Chairman Emeritus (former head of the Irvine Company)
Caroline Ahmanson (head and founder of Caroline Leonetti Ltd.)
Philip Hawley (Carter Hawley Hale)
Samuel Williamson (senior partner, Hufstedler, Miller, Carson, & Beardsley)
Stan Lee (Chairman of Marvel Entertainment)
Ronald “Ron” Miller (CEO Emeritus)
Frank Wells (Chairman and CEO Emeritus)
Jane A. Nebel Henson (Chairwoman, Henson Arts)
The Disney Executive Committee:
Stan Kinsey, CEO
James M. “Jim” Henson, Chairman and CCO
Thomas “Tom” Wilhite, President and COO
Bernard “Bernie” Brillstein, Chairman of Disney-NBC Television
John Hench, President, Walt Disney Imagineering Workshop
Roy E. Disney, President, Walt Disney Studios
It's been one hell of a ride... and can't wait to see the Jim Henson Farewell Bash.
Again, however, I do hope he accepts an Emeritus title - he deserves one.
Again, however, I do hope he accepts an Emeritus title - he deserves one.
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