When Was the Golden Age of Western Civilization

Zioneer

Banned
People who repeat the tired line that "the EU is bureaucratic" don't even have the vaguest idea how many civil servants it employs. Look it up before parroting the Europhobes.

What's wrong with a bureaucracy anyway? Isn't it just a style (not a form) of governance? And surely it's better then nepotism, cronyism, and the like.
 
This depend on what we call "Western Civilization". I would argue that we're currently transforming into some sort of "Global" civilization that is very much Western influenced, kinda like Western Civilization itself has succeed Classical antique civilization.
 

Skokie

Banned
The Golden Age is now.

Western Civilization is a cultural construct. By that definition most of the world today is Westernized. Even dictatorships at least pretend to be popular and fix elections. Russia and Iran are far more democratic today than Britain or the USA in the 18th century, neither had universal suffrage until the 20th century. China today is a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism, after experimenting with Marxism, all Western ideologies. India is also Westernized, as is much of Africa. There are in fact no cultural alternative to the Western other than radical Islam. This is a first in history.

The parts of the world today that are not Westernized are few and far between. Most of the world wear Western clothes, sport Western haircuts, accept Western science and medicine, use Western technology, speak some form of European language, etc.

Today we interact with each other through the internet. On this very forum we have people from all over the world typing in English. Go back to earlier in the 20th century and it was possible to find truly isolated cultures, people who think cameras steal their souls. That world is almost gone, you have to try pretty hard to find it.

I have a couple problems with that. Take India. Are you saying that it ceased being an Indian culture, with a 4,000-odd-year continuous civilization of its own, once it adopted a liberal constitution?

Secondly, to what extent are democracy, science and medicine Western? Aren't they global/universal and humanistic? For example, my friends who are in grad school in the hard sciences regularly collaborate with people in South Africa, Israel, Japan, Cuba, China, India.
 
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This depend on what we call "Western Civilization". I would argue that we're currently transforming into some sort of "Global" civilization that is very much Western influenced, kinda like Western Civilization itself has succeed Classical antique civilization.

Oh, definitely so.
 
It is by belief that Western civilization has had several peaks, bisected by periods of chaos and decline, but the two most prominent ones would be:

During the Roman Principate (27 BC – 235 AD)

The Pax Romana assured a universal peace across the Mediterranean. Culture, literature and art flourished, and a single high culture united the elites across the Mediterranean, while a universal citizenship guaranteed a commonwealth of peoples. There were unprecedented levels of affluence and prosperity, there was religious tolerance, and a stable system of government.

and

The Belle Époque (1871-1914)

The western colonial empires spanned the globe, and the West’s industrial supremacy was unmatched. Western culture and ideals were by far the most influential, and science and technology made tremendous strides. If anything, the world was almost as globalized in 1914 as it is today. People had confidence in the state, in stability, and in civilization.

Modern times. As someone else said, standards of living are constantly rising. I'd rather live in 2009 than any past time period.

One should not judge the peak of a civilization solely, or even primarily, by the rise in living standards. After all, the average citizen of Great Britain was far more well off in the 1950s and 1960s then in the 1890s and 1900s, yet few would argue that the 50s or 60s was the apogee of the British Empire. Similarly, the modern French middle class citizen has a far higher living standard then his equivalent during the Grand Siécle or the First Empire, yet it would be difficult to argue that were are currently living the in golden age of France.
 
Well, Golden Age for the various Western States, or the People who in modern political thought, MAKE those states?
 
I have a couple problems with that. Take India. Are you saying that it ceased being an Indian culture, with a 4,000-odd-year continuous civilization of its own, once it adopted a liberal constitution?
If we look at English culture, it is also different from the ancient Greeks. The English became Westernized rather late compared to the rest of the Roman sphere, and they kept some of their own uniqueness. India has its own traditions, but by and large it's part of the Western system and it's "rise" is in fact it's becoming more Westernized. India and China are joining the Western world not replacing it.

Secondly, to what extent are democracy, science and medicine Western? Aren't they global/universal and humanistic? For example, my friends who are in grad school in the hard sciences regularly collaborate with people in South Africa, Israel, Japan, Cuba, China, India.
Many civilizations contributed to the modern world. But the modern world as we know it was an invention of the West. Everyone you collaborate with received a Western education, accept the scientific process as norm, and are devoted to the study of science for the understanding of a rational universe rather than for example, performing a religious service. They are men and women of science, and they were inspired by the same people that inspired you, like Darwin, Edison, Fleming, etc. Two centuries ago you would not have had these international collaborators to work with.
 
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Skokie

Banned
If we look at English culture, it is also different from the ancient Greeks. The English became Westernized rather late compared to the rest of the Roman sphere, and they kept some of their own uniqueness.

But the English had no culture to speak of before the Romans. ;)

In contrast, India was one of the four or five places on earth where civilization emerged spontaneously. Indian culture never fell apart like classical culture did in the West. Why would it disappear now? More likely Indians borrow what they need from the West, and India-fy it.

India has its own traditions, but by and large it's part of the Western system and it's "rise" is in fact it's becoming more Westernized. India and China are joining the Western world not replacing it.

I think Indians would disagree, as would Western travelers to that country.

Many civilizations contributed to the modern world. But the modern world as we know it was an invention of the West. Everyone you collaborate with received a Western education, accept the scientific process as norm, and are devoted to the study of science for the understanding of a rational universe rather than for example, performing a religious service. They are men and women of science, and they were inspired by the same people that inspired you, like Darwin, Edison, Fleming, etc. Two centuries ago you would not have had these international collaborators to work with.

Right, but in a deeper sense, I still hold that they are universal. The West merely "discovered" them first. The scientific revolution or democracy may well have emerged in China or India in a parallel universe. Then we would be going on about Indian culture's essential rationality or whatever.

Science is about empiricism, btw. And the West does not have a monopoly on either empiricism or rationality, not even when the East was in a comparatively weaker, less-developed state than it is today. Most religions think they are rational. Eastern ones are no exception. Buddhist and Hindu philosophy have their atheist, sceptical and even atomist and materialist schools. The Chinese have the saying: "The way of heaven is distant; the way of man is near."

Finally, the reason the West got to create modernity is the result of a rather unhappy accident: that long period of colonization, imperialism and war that ended in the West tearing itself to pieces. So while I don't agree with knee-jerk anti-Western bullshit, we should also be a bit critical.
 
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