To avoid it? Maybe if we keep the area divided and have like KBJ(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Duchies_of_Jülich-Cleves-Berg) become a local power and have it unify Germany you would have the Netherlands being part of that Germany. Keeping it divided and not too remote is the trick.
The County of Holland was more or less coterminous with the former Frisian Kingdom. There was some sense of not being completely the same as the other Germans from the creation of the German Kingdom -- the Frisians had their own language (it's still spoken) which would have contributed to this. But that's only part of the Netherlands.
The real break with the rest of Germany came when Burgundy lost its own rulers and became one of many provinces of a distant emperor. This was initially popular (it prevented absorption by France) but over time people became alienated because they felt that the Hapsburgs thought of their Dutch provinces as mainly a cash cow. Finally, the Reformation, followed by the Dutch revolt and division into Northern and Southern Netherlands eventually led to people in the two territories no longer considering themselves the same.
The real break with the rest of Germany came when Burgundy lost its own rulers and became one of many provinces of a distant emperor. This was initially popular (it prevented absorption by France) but over time people became alienated because they felt that the Hapsburgs thought of their Dutch provinces as mainly a cash cow. Finally, the Reformation, followed by the Dutch revolt and division into Northern and Southern Netherlands eventually led to people in the two territories no longer considering themselves the same.
In that case I do not accept your premise. There was no German identity and the Dutch did not develope a seperate identity. The moment the German identity arose the Netherlands had evolved its seperate identity. Could the Netherlands become part of a Germany and have an identity similar to its eastern neighbours? Yes it could. If the Netherlands does not seperate from te HRE during the Dutch revolt, its history will not be dissimilar than its neighbours. Does that mean the Netherlands ends up becoming Berman? No it does not. The Netherlands was incredibly influential on European history. No Netherlands could easily mean no Germany, but a Germany split into several nations. Actualy it could easily mean a Europe completely dominate by France (the Netherlands was a major obstacle for French domination) with France annexing most or all of the Netherlands.
In short no, there was no German identity in the early Middle Ages, or a German nations, just a bunch of feudal (or even trabal) lords that swore fealty towards a German Overlord. That system developed through various stages into Germany. The Netherlands and several other regions within Europe were part of that early kingdom, but the local people didn't care about it, while the nobility did only feel connected by it through feudal connections. The Netherlands was not that different from the other parts of that kindom, except that it was further from its core,so even less connected than other parts. During the Dutch revolt it stopped needing the kingdom and formed its own identy. Several other parts also formed its own identity around that time, like Switserland or Wallonia and Flanders. Other areas could easily have formed seperate indentities. he rest of the area developed into Germany and creating its own identity. If the Netherlands had remained within the HRE it could have become part of Germany, assuming Germany actualy forms. If not not the Netherlands could form its own seperate identity (or identities) or possibly get swallowed up by France (or maybe even Englan, they had their interests in that area too after all).
Depends on your POD. If Luther decide to write his bible in Dutch, yes. I think that protestant Germany, certainly protestant Northern (lower Saxon) Germany could end up speaking a Dutch(like) language. With a POD after Luther, it becomes a lot harder. Maybe with a different 30-year war, which actualy breaks up (or splits) the HRE, I could see the Calvinist parts of northern Germany switching to the Dutch bible and possibly the Dutch language, especialy the north western parts. All of Germany? Unlikely. I would say only if the Netherlands becomes the focuspoint of the HRE before and during the reformation. I don't know. It seems unlikely for all of germany to start using the language of a border ara that was never an important area of the Emprise.
I doubt it, What´s the relevancy of Dutch in the Hanseatic cities? Plus if there is no political unification I think they would end up with Low Saxon.
Also I think we should remember than in most of those languages the use was already semi official at administration level plus the Bible´s translations are not the first work of literature of those languages.
And a thing to remember is that the feudal system in the netherlands never was that very developed, nobility was closer to the people, feudal ties much looser, and some the northern parts being fairly stubborn & independent by nature (and still are) who weren't shy of rising up against bad nobility and shorten them somewhat (dutch- kopje kleiner maken,
)A more successful Second Reformation could have lead to the adoption of Dutch languaged bibles, if you could get Denmark-Norway to convert it would be a good start, that would lead to the Lower Saxon princes have greater interest in copnverting too. If we mix that with greater Protestant success in 30YW, with Munster and Westphalia ending up as secular duchies under Reformed dukes. This could lead to North Rhine-Westphalia, Lower Saxony and the German nad Frisian parts of Schleswig-Holsten adopting Dutch as their written standard.
considering how much it was used as trade language OTL (even in scottish ports) i could see it evolve slowly to a lingua france between the different dialects, especially with no unification.
You have already the Low German of the Hanseatic cities for that, Dutch is going to be used only until you reach Bremen IMO. Of course the reach of it as a second language would be bigger.
If that much of Germany is converted I think you would end up with Middle Franconian being used for the Bible, given the relevancy of the region inside the HRE.
In OTL, most of the areas east of the Dutch border seems to have been Catholic. Would it have been possible to make those areas turn Protestant? If they became Calvinist, maybe they would adopt Dutch as their standard, as Calvinism was already strong in the Netherlands.
The Second Reformation was the conversion of Lutheran states to Calvinism, it was moistly something which happen from somewhere in the 1560ties and until the 30YW. So Luther's bible already rules, of course if much of north west Germany and Denmark-Norway have turned Reformed before the Dutch wrote their own bible, there's a good chance that some other state create the first Reformed Bible in Low Saxon, which was closely related to Dutch, so the Dutch may simply adopt a Low Saxon Reformed Bible. The most powerful prince in the region was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, who was also King of Denmark-Norway, so there's a good chance that we could see a "Dutch" bible in the Holstein regional dialect of Low Saxon. The dialect spoken in the western parts of the Duchy should be very closely related to Dutch and Frisian.
Maybe the republic reacts stronger to the incursions of the bishop of Münster & his troops during the 80 year war, and takes the bishopric?
that was my thought, it starts off as 2nd language/trade language, and slowly becomes more import (bit like english at the moment)
after introduction of hoch-deutsch the differences became greater, but still the difference between Gronings and Ost-friesisch/platt is small. back then there would be no difference, just a gradual change with distance
In OTL, most of the areas east of the Dutch border seems to have been Catholic. Would it have been possible to make those areas turn Protestant? If they became Calvinist, maybe they would adopt Dutch as their standard, as Calvinism was already strong in the Netherlands.
The area on the border are the so called Münsterland, which was the Prince-Bishopric of Münster, it ended up having the same Bishops as the Prince-Archbishopric of Cologne (relatives of the Duke of Bavaria) in te periode 1585-1761, if it could be secularised into a Reformed duchy or could get a Reformed "administrator" (like the Prince-Archbishopric of Bremen got a Lutheran one), it would surely adopt Dutch as the written standard.
Here's an idea for making the Netherlands expand into it's Dutch cousins across the contemporary German border; have Calvinism be more popular. Perhaps have it be recognized in the Augsburg treaty or simply have the Calvinist gain power in Munster instead of Anabaptists. During the time period of the 30 years war which arguably cemented Dutch Independence, Religious divides were more important than cultural ones; and the Calvinists would likely want to be part of the Netherlands given the oppurtunities(Many calvinists were self-made men, as Calvinist ideals appealed to them) and the fact that they'd be part of a ruling class. Religious minorities(especially catholics) may also be more inclined to be absorbed into the Netherlands than say, a Protestant, because unlike Calvin's theocracy in Switzerland the Netherlands was very tolerant of Religious minorities.
I will be the first to agree that it is a long shot, but it was the best I could do with the question, could Germany speak Dutch.
Don't underestimate the power of the counter reformation. It was very effective. A lot of those area near the Netherlands had protestant sympathies in the past, but were reconverted during the counter reformation (Flanders is a great example).
I can see that happening, not quite native though.
Gronings is basically Dutch if I understood it, Low Saxon is not far from Dutch and Frisian while influenced by it is quite clearly not Dutch. Also I´m quite sure while there is a gradual transformation that Frisian is not quite part of Low Franconian or Low German.
no, gronings is a low-saxon dialect
this map shows the language distance to standard dutch, the higher the number the further away from standard dutch
as you can see Afrikaans is actually closer to standard dutch than gronings
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I doubt Frisian is closer to Dutch than like south Brabantic, I mean those are Low Franconian at least.no, gronings is a low-saxon dialect
this map shows the language distance to standard dutch, the higher the number the further away from standard dutch
as you can see Afrikaans is actually closer to standard dutch than gronings