When did pre-WW2 Germany surpass France?

A random question.

Judging the military capacity of both nations, and taking into account land, naval and air military strength, as well as industrial capacity and doctrine, at which point during the Interwar period did the German army surpass the French one?
 
I would guess that the year is 1938, at least as far as air power is concerned, in fact i think Germany built more aircraft than France as far back as 1937. But one on one, i doubt that France would win against Germany in 1938 even if they might have more tanks and artillery (was that the case, any figures available?).
 
By the time Germany had finished annexing Czechoslovakia in early 1939, their population was double that of France. Really, I think we overestimate the French thinking they should have been able to beat those odds.
 
The 'military capacity' also includes current state of doctrine, tactics and esprit du corps. Germany was leading France in these categories much before they produced all those aircraft, tanks and ships.
 

Deleted member 1487

A random question.

Judging the military capacity of both nations, and taking into account land, naval and air military strength, as well as industrial capacity and doctrine, at which point during the Interwar period did the German army surpass the French one?
In terms of ability to beat it 1 on 1 I'd say after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. Not the Sudetenland, the 1939 establishment of the protectorate. German rearmament was falling behind and they got the bonanza of armaments when they took over the Czech army's stockpiles of weapons and their armaments industry, which was huge relative to the size of the country due it being the armory of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then finding itself without an empire to supply. The German army was actually the less part of the reason the Germans were able to beat the French though, the Luftwaffe was the big game changer, that surpassed the French at least by 1937, even as the French army (not counting air forces) was able to beat the German army until 1939. The thing is the French did not invest much in their air force relative to their army and what air force they did have they didn't really even know how to use; during the 1940 campaign the ALA, the French air force, was calling up the army every day and asking them if they had any missions for the ALA and were frequently turned down. The French were simply too ground focused, while the Germans realized just how critical the air component of future wars would be due to being on the receiving end of the 1918 'blitzkrieg' of the Allies. In fact the Germans spent as much on the Luftwaffe as the Army during rearmament and the war, while the German army, realizing how critical the Luftwaffe was, sent it's best staff officers, men who would have been heads of the army at some point, to the Luftwaffe in 1933 right when the army was about to expand and badly needed every competent officer to manage that. They were willing to stunt the growth of the army to ensure the Luftwaffe was the best in the world. And that paid off handsomely in France in 1940. So while the French kept ground superiority right up until that huge strategic blunder of allowing the Germans to take the Czech armory without a shot being fired, they had long lost air superiority and knew it in 1939-40 when they specifically refused to engaged in any air attacks on Germany for fear of retaliation, because they knew they would lose any such exchange.

It also didn't help that France had an economy about half the size of Germany even with their entire empire propping up their economy.
 
In terms of ability to beat it 1 on 1 I'd say after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. Not the Sudetenland, the 1939 establishment of the protectorate. ....

Gotta agree there. Whatever the merits of German doctrines, the weapons and the training of most battalions or corps were not up to the task through 1938. Even in 1940 at least 15% of the ground force was to recently formed & untrained to execute German army doctrine to any degree of reliability. The rapid expansion of 1934-38 created some strong paralles to the Red Army of 1941.
 
Judging the military capacity of both nations, and taking into account land, naval and air military strength, as well as industrial capacity and doctrine, at which point during the Interwar period did the German army surpass the French one?
I would argue that once Germany had recovered from WW1 in the 1920s they were already ahead of the French.

Look at the population difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany

Germany, 1933 - 65.3 million people
France, 1931 - 41.5 million people

I'd have to argue that Germans are for the most part more productive than the French, so we can expect Germany to have greater industrial capacity than France even in the early post-WW1 period. The below chart suggests that France has never exceeded the industrial capacity of Germany.

B9Fn-iFCcAA2-YN.jpg
 

Deleted member 1487

I would argue that once Germany had recovered from WW1 in the 1920s they were already ahead of the French.

Look at the population difference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany

Germany, 1933 - 65.3 million people
France, 1931 - 41.5 million people

I'd have to argue that Germans are for the most part more productive than the French, so we can expect Germany to have greater industrial capacity than France even in the early post-WW1 period. The below chart suggests that France has never exceeded the industrial capacity of Germany.
Arguably one could say that the Great War and reparations retarded German growth to the extent that it kept them from pulling even further ahead.
 
In capability of winning? I'd say after the Germans trapped the Allies in Belgium. Without that disaster, the Allies may have held long enough to exhaust the Germans into collapse, especially with British resources.
Industrial and populationwise, whatever the other guys have said.
 

Archibald

Banned
As Roland said - once the Sedan bridgehead snowballed to the Atlantic coast (Abbeville) then France best and most numerous armies were trapped in the Dunkirk pocket.
Otherwise - as many already said - September 1938 when they got Skoda and their panzers. Which made (in retrospect) Munich even more silly.
 
In terms of ability to beat it 1 on 1 I'd say after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. Not the Sudetenland, the 1939 establishment of the protectorate. German rearmament was falling behind and they got the bonanza of armaments when they took over the Czech army's stockpiles of weapons and their armaments industry, which was huge relative to the size of the country due it being the armory of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then finding itself without an empire to supply. The German army was actually the less part of the reason the Germans were able to beat the French though, the Luftwaffe was the big game changer, that surpassed the French at least by 1937, even as the French army (not counting air forces) was able to beat the German army until 1939. The thing is the French did not invest much in their air force relative to their army and what air force they did have they didn't really even know how to use; during the 1940 campaign the ALA, the French air force, was calling up the army every day and asking them if they had any missions for the ALA and were frequently turned down. The French were simply too ground focused, while the Germans realized just how critical the air component of future wars would be due to being on the receiving end of the 1918 'blitzkrieg' of the Allies. In fact the Germans spent as much on the Luftwaffe as the Army during rearmament and the war, while the German army, realizing how critical the Luftwaffe was, sent it's best staff officers, men who would have been heads of the army at some point, to the Luftwaffe in 1933 right when the army was about to expand and badly needed every competent officer to manage that. They were willing to stunt the growth of the army to ensure the Luftwaffe was the best in the world. And that paid off handsomely in France in 1940. So while the French kept ground superiority right up until that huge strategic blunder of allowing the Germans to take the Czech armory without a shot being fired, they had long lost air superiority and knew it in 1939-40 when they specifically refused to engaged in any air attacks on Germany for fear of retaliation, because they knew they would lose any such exchange.

It also didn't help that France had an economy about half the size of Germany even with their entire empire propping up their economy.
How long did German army need to actually use Czech armaments?
What would have been the result of France attacking Germany in March 1939?
 

Deleted member 1487

How long did German army need to actually use Czech armaments?
What would have been the result of France attacking Germany in March 1939?
Well IIRC it took several months, but it was ready by September for the invasion of Poland. They ended up getting enough equipment to partially or fully equip 22 divisions.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Czech weapons are overestimated - only 9 IDs were actually equipped with czech Weapons, only 350 of 2.500 tanks were czech made...
9 Full divisions perhaps, but Germany and the Second World War series, volume 1, specifically states 22 divisions were fully or partially equipped with Czech weapons. That included Panzer divisions.
 
How does Britain get trapped with the world's largest navy and merchant marine based just off the coast?

The potential capture of their main army and abandonment of their heavy equipment in Belgium sorta sealed the deal in terms of them being beaten. And that fleet means nothing if they have nowhere to dock.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
9 Full divisions perhaps, but Germany and the Second World War series, volume 1, specifically states 22 divisions were fully or partially equipped with Czech weapons. That included Panzer divisions.
At what point of time ? ... And over what extension of time ? Definitly not at the 02.09.1939.

In Poland 112 PzKw 35t were used and 57 PzKw 38t.

In 1940 at the onset of the Sichelschnitt there were 118 PzKw 35t with 14 Commandpanzers 35t in the 6th PanzerDivision as well as 238 PzKw 38t in the 7th and 8th PanzerDivision.
Not even 3 complete PanzerDivisions.

(Source : german wiki)
 

Deleted member 1487

At what point of time ? ... And over what extension of time ? Definitly not at the 02.09.1939.

In Poland 112 PzKw 35t were used and 57 PzKw 38t.

In 1940 at the onset of the Sichelschnitt there were 118 PzKw 35t with 14 Commandpanzers 35t in the 6th PanzerDivision as well as 238 PzKw 38t in the 7th and 8th PanzerDivision.
Not even 3 complete PanzerDivisions.

(Source : german wiki)
I didn't say 22 Panzer divisions, I said 22 divisions including Panzer divisions, which means infantry divisions as well. The SS ended up using Czech equipment early on in their first combat units and then a bunch of non-combat units used Czech stuff.
 

tenthring

Banned
In terms of ability to beat it 1 on 1 I'd say after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. Not the Sudetenland, the 1939 establishment of the protectorate. German rearmament was falling behind and they got the bonanza of armaments when they took over the Czech army's stockpiles of weapons and their armaments industry, which was huge relative to the size of the country due it being the armory of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then finding itself without an empire to supply. The German army was actually the less part of the reason the Germans were able to beat the French though, the Luftwaffe was the big game changer, that surpassed the French at least by 1937, even as the French army (not counting air forces) was able to beat the German army until 1939. The thing is the French did not invest much in their air force relative to their army and what air force they did have they didn't really even know how to use; during the 1940 campaign the ALA, the French air force, was calling up the army every day and asking them if they had any missions for the ALA and were frequently turned down. The French were simply too ground focused, while the Germans realized just how critical the air component of future wars would be due to being on the receiving end of the 1918 'blitzkrieg' of the Allies. In fact the Germans spent as much on the Luftwaffe as the Army during rearmament and the war, while the German army, realizing how critical the Luftwaffe was, sent it's best staff officers, men who would have been heads of the army at some point, to the Luftwaffe in 1933 right when the army was about to expand and badly needed every competent officer to manage that. They were willing to stunt the growth of the army to ensure the Luftwaffe was the best in the world. And that paid off handsomely in France in 1940. So while the French kept ground superiority right up until that huge strategic blunder of allowing the Germans to take the Czech armory without a shot being fired, they had long lost air superiority and knew it in 1939-40 when they specifically refused to engaged in any air attacks on Germany for fear of retaliation, because they knew they would lose any such exchange.

It also didn't help that France had an economy about half the size of Germany even with their entire empire propping up their economy.

Excellent comment. One thing we all overlook is that while Germany did have worse motorization, worse tanks, and worse supply situation in 1939/1940, they did have a better air force, and one designed exactly for the strategy they used in France.
 
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