When did Islam's fall from grace begin?

Leo Caesius

Banned
What are you waiting for?!
Are they actually sealed off by the authorites? Or are they simply buried away?
They've been accessible to western scholars since the 50s, IIRC, but not very accessible. There's an enormous bureaucracy built around them designed explicitly to prevent non-Turks from using them, by any means necessary. Sadly, Ottoman is not generally available for study in Turkey (except for the small summer school run by Harvard), so there's a shortage of qualified people who can actually use these archives. I do know a number of Harvard-educated Young Turks who are just getting their careers started and should start to make things available soon.

One of these days, I'll improve my Turkish (and Ottoman) to the point where I can use the archives effectively and conduct my own research. I hope that, by that point, the relations between my government and Turkey have improved.
 
The question really should be when did Islam's core area start to lag behind the rest of the world, and there are economic, social, and political reasons for this. If the Middle East had remained Christian to this very day, I don't think it would be any better off. Likewise, if all of Europe had become Muslim, I don't think the Middle East would be better off for it.

There's two potential AH timelines right there.

I think the damage done by Hegelu, and little over a century later by Timur, did a great deal of damage that the Arab world in particular has not quite recovered from. Between that and the old trade routes being bypassed... well there is a reason the Arab sections of the Ottoman Empire was largely regarded as a backwater.

BTW, the social pathologies many speak of as Islamic largely predate Mohammed.

HTG
 
Very interesting to know... what kind of people (besides the Iberian muslims, and some Jews maybe), why did they leave, and why did it stop then, and not earlier or later?

It is telling the number of peasants fleeing _into_ Ottoman lands up to the 1600s or so (when law and order started seriously breaking down there) and away from their coreligionist overlords.

HTG
 
Still thats enough from me, I know when I'm wasting my time, even if I were right I'd still be wrong as I crossed swords with a Phd in some peoples eyes.

No, you'd be wrong because you have no verification for your opinion.
 
Leo, could it be the Renisance and Calvanism's emphisis on individual learning,that caused NW Europe to leap ahead of SE Europe and the Islamic world?

It being not so much the latter two stagnating as the first area moving ahead much faster than they did?

It seems to me that NW Europe would be the same as the other two if Universal Literacy had 1 not happened in NW E. or had happened in SW E., Otto Emp.
 
Very interesting thread. Have enjoyed reading it.

I'm with the mainstream here, the stagantion of the Islamic world cannot be attributed to any single cause just as the fall of any other empire did not have a single cause.

I wonder how much the rapidity of expansion in the early years may have effected matters. Coupled with the lack of a hierarchy amongst the faithful this would make it very difficult to ensure that the faith, and more importantly the philosophical background to it, is spread in a uniform fashion. So, perhaps there were internal stresses caused by islam's initial success. Just a thought.

Another point - referring to the 'who was more innovative' part of this thread. Coming up with the idea/invention is only a small percentage of progress as a whole. Implementation of the idea/invention into the mainstream of everyday life is the key. For instance, the chinese have been very innovative throughout their history but have not gone on and developed a world spanning empire (at least, not yet). From the other perspective the Romans were not terribly innovative but they were extremely good at maximising the potential of ideas/inventions from other peoples and implementing them on a broad scale. Nobody considers the romans to be backward or lacking in intelligence so why should islam be judged poorly for doing what the romans did?

After all, a good idea is a good idea, it doesn't matter who comes up with it.

I have a question about the Mongol invasions and it's effects. I understand that this would have been a traumatic incident for the middle eastern islamic world but would it have had a dramatic effect on north africa and spain?
 
As I hope my earlier time line pointed out, I think that the search for a moral or psychological cause for Islam's decline is foolish. Beside such searches tend to just be ways of having Europeans feel good about themselves (OOO, we aren't backward, fatalistic, and stupid like them). The decline was political (lack of a stable system following the Turkish influx, not necessarily a centralized empire, but even stable states would have been adequate), military (Mongol assaults on the core area), and economic (more to follow).
The economic needs a bit more explanation. Muslim states have generally been, even today, trapped in an agarian regime. Wealth is derived from land ownership (not just agriculture but mineral extraction as well), taxation, and control of known trade routes. Technology remains stable, though slow innovation is common enough. When the Italians developed capital investment (improved by northern Europeans a century later) the rules of the international game of wealth and power changed. No other society realized this until very late (with the exception of Japan, the 20th Century only).
The benefits of this transformation weren't immediately obvious because of Europe's initial backwardness and the resources available to early modern Muslim empires (Mamlukes, Ottomans, Persians, Mughals etc.). But as time went on, the Europeans were on perpetual motion, while the Muslims empires were facing the standard limit of an agarian empire/dynasty (roughly 2 centuries). Actually the Morrocans, Ottomans, and Safavids/Pahlavis did better than most in the face of European challenges. The Mughals and Marathas fell apart after a century or less (depending on when you start). The Manchus collapsed 70 years after the Opium War, their first introduction to a European spanking.
 
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