Whats with the whole: no Hitler = democratic Germany

Deleted member 1487

Fair enough. My assertion that violence against the Jewish community would erupt was more derived from things such as the stab in the back myth, and an assumption that Jews would face hostility in the wake of Great Depression that might boil over into reactionary violence. Before the war, whilst the Jews were integrated, there was still a degree of conservative antisemitism against them, and the suppression of the Jewish Censure led to accusations of a lack of patriotism within the Jewish community, compounded with the financial crash, I assume that violence would still be targeted towards Jews, and whilst not as volatile and extreme as what happened under Hitler, we might see a resurgence in the Völkisch movement.
Other than a few radical right extremists virtually no one was interested in targeting Jews in Germany, even under Hitler. As Hitler was in power he was able to use the apparatus of state to round up Jews, to start with less than 1% of the population and over half of whom had emigrated before the war, during the war in 1941. Prior there were not mass arrests of Germans in the Reich (Poland was another story).

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005469

It took the war and the government on Hitler's order to launch any significant violence against German Jews. Without Hitler around driving policy its more likely that they would just be left alone, legally petitioning to get back any property and rights they were denied. The question is whether any one would want to come back or stay after what happened. There might be minor personal violence against some Jews, but its likely that the radical Nazis that would engage in such violence would be purged with the fall of Hitler or at least in jail. Hitler demise pretty much knocks out violent anti-semitism, which had not been a problem in Germany since in the 1800s. Even during the German Civil War in 1918-19 violence against Jews was specific to their participation as communists, not being Jewish, though some political assassinations did hit prominent Jewish politicians (though most of the victims were not Jewish) like Walter Rathenau, but even then far more people mourned him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_Rathenau
For the time being the reactions upon Rathenau's assassination strengthened the Weimar Republic. The most notable reaction was the enactment of the Republikschutzgesetz (Law for the Defense of the Republic) taking effect on July 22, 1922. The Deutschlandlied was made the German national anthem. As long as the Weimar Republic existed, the date June 24 remained a day of public commemorations. In public memory Rathenau's death increasingly appeared to be a martyr-like sacrifice for democracy.[11]
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Other than a few radical right extremists virtually no one was interested in targeting Jews in Germany, even under Hitler. As Hitler was in power he was able to use the apparatus of state to round up Jews, to start with less than 1% of the population and over half of whom had emigrated before the war, during the war in 1941. Prior there were not mass arrests of Germans in the Reich (Poland was another story).

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005469

It took the war and the government on Hitler's order to launch any significant violence against German Jews. Without Hitler around driving policy its more likely that they would just be left alone, legally petitioning to get back any property and rights they were denied. The question is whether any one would want to come back or stay after what happened. There might be minor personal violence against some Jews, but its likely that the radical Nazis that would engage in such violence would be purged with the fall of Hitler or at least in jail. Hitler demise pretty much knocks out violent anti-semitism, which had not been a problem in Germany since in the 1800s. Even during the German Civil War in 1918-19 violence against Jews was specific to their participation as communists, not being Jewish, though some political assassinations did hit prominent Jewish politicians (though most of the victims were not Jewish) like Walter Rathenau, but even then far more people mourned him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_Rathenau

Interesting. So without Hitler, Jews would still have a place in Germany. A potential effect could be a more open antisemitic policy in the Soviet Union, which under Stalin's premiership enacted antisemitic policies under the pretense of class struggle and anti-zionism, which decried Antisemitism as bourgeoisie. Maybe the Great Purges evolve into a more direct Pogrom as a result of this?

Also, what is the likely hood of a Monarchist Party getting into office? They had popularity and given the failings of the Weimeir Republic, it seems likely for them to get in. Just how likely?
 
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Deleted member 1487

Interesting. So without Hitler, Jews would still have a place in Germany. A potential effect could be a more open antisemitic policy in the Soviet Union, which under Stalin's premiership enacted antisemitic policies under the pretense of class struggle and anti-zionism, which decried Antisemitism as bourgeoisie. Maybe the Great Purges evolve into a more direct Pogrom as a result of this?
Depends on what you mean without Hitler. If Hitler was never in charge, definitely, they would never lose their place in Germany. If Hitler were in charge and say died in 1939 before WW2, then that's a bit tricky, because over half of Jews have left, they've lost property, jobs, social position, etc. Pogroms have happened, albeit organized by the Nazis. Jews might come back, might not if anti-semitic policies are overturned and they are allowed to reclaim property and jobs, but a lot of bad feelings are going to be there, plus some murders have already happened.

I doubt the Nazis falling from power would have anything to do with Soviet policy. The anti-semitism in the USSR was partly to court the Nazis in a potential deal, while after the war it was in response to the founding of Israel and fears of dual loyalty. Israel probably doesn't exist without WW2 and the Holocaust.
 
Other than a few radical right extremists virtually no one was interested in targeting Jews in Germany, even under Hitler. As Hitler was in power he was able to use the apparatus of state to round up Jews, to start with less than 1% of the population and over half of whom had emigrated before the war, during the war in 1941. Prior there were not mass arrests of Germans in the Reich (Poland was another story).

This is a really disturbing rereading of German history. Leaving its ignorance of things like Kritsallnacht, it ignores the systematic persecution and discrimination of Jewish individuals that was so bad that they were forced to emigrate, as you note.

I'm not going to say the Germans were Hitler's Willing Executioners, but I think anti-Semitism was a lot more pervasive, and more of a vote winner, than you think.
 

Deleted member 1487

This is a really disturbing rereading of German history. Leaving its ignorance of things like Kritsallnacht, it ignores the systematic persecution and discrimination of Jewish individuals that was so bad that they were forced to emigrate, as you note.

I'm not going to say the Germans were Hitler's Willing Executioners, but I think anti-Semitism was a lot more pervasive, and more of a vote winner, than you think.
Kristalnacht, as I cited earlier, was a popular act, it was a government organized action by thugs under government direction as a policy. The issue was Hitler's government and his merry band of criminals, not the German people as a whole. Also the whole use of anti-semitism in German politics up to that point was a cheap, cynical political ploy to appeal to the worst in German society to get their votes, the same way that anti-immigrant and racist rhetoric used in US politics. This book has a whole section about the history of anti-semitism in German political life as a tactic for electoral gain:
http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Problem-Reconsidered-Germany/dp/0521299667
Its somewhat dated now due to it being written in the 1980s, but still has a firm grasp of the facts on German political history through WW2.

That's not to say there wasn't a hard core of anti-semites in Germany, but they weren't running around pre-Nazi government mass murdering Jews. They did conduct some political violence and were jailed for their crimes in the 1920s; during the Nazi regime they were given free reign to a point to continue, but without the Nazis in power its unlikely that things would continue on that path without active government encouragement; with active government repealing of Nazi anti-semitic laws that would actually tamp down the thugs and make anti-semitism of the far right extremists unacceptable once again. That won't end anti-semitism in Germany and it will continue to be an issue with the far right, but its not going to result in Pogroms or widespread violence against Jews in Germany.

Note too that it was government policy that caused German Jews to leave, not violence on the streets (nearly as much).
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Depends on what you mean without Hitler. If Hitler was never in charge, definitely, they would never lose their place in Germany. If Hitler were in charge and say died in 1939 before WW2, then that's a bit tricky, because over half of Jews have left, they've lost property, jobs, social position, etc. Pogroms have happened, albeit organized by the Nazis. Jews might come back, might not if anti-semitic policies are overturned and they are allowed to reclaim property and jobs, but a lot of bad feelings are going to be there, plus some murders have already happened.

I doubt the Nazis falling from power would have anything to do with Soviet policy. The anti-semitism in the USSR was partly to court the Nazis in a potential deal, while after the war it was in response to the founding of Israel and fears of dual loyalty. Israel probably doesn't exist without WW2 and the Holocaust.

I interpreted the OP as meaning a Germany where Hitler is dead by 1929 or never existed. I also fudged up my sentence somewhat, what I meant was the Union's declaration of Antisemitism as bourgeoisie was a response to Germany, and without the need to respond Stalin's government would be more open about it's antisemitism. I agree that by 1939, not much would change.
 
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