Whats the worst damage that Napoleon could have done to...

Austria, Prussia and Russia? Would it have been within Napoleon's capability to seriously weaken these states millatery and economicly before his ultimate defeat, to the point where they'd have trouble projecting their power agianst an upstart German state (albiet a larger one like Bavaria or Hannover, or even some sort of surving or sucessor state to the conferderation of the Rhine) ?

If this is impossible to cripple Russia and still have a defeated Napoleon, is it possible for at least Prussia and Austria?
 

Susano

Banned
Austria, Prussia and Russia? Would it have been within Napoleon's capability to seriously weaken these states millatery and economicly before his ultimate defeat, to the point where they'd have trouble projecting their power agianst an upstart German state (albiet a larger one like Bavaria or Hannover, or even some sort of surving or sucessor state to the conferderation of the Rhine) ?

If this is impossible to cripple Russia and still have a defeated Napoleon, is it possible for at least Prussia and Austria?

To Prussia and Austria? Dissolve them. Though probably not both at once (the more far-reaching partition plans Napoleon ahd for Prussia saw for an Austrian Silesia, for example). Of course, if and when Napoleon is defeated, both would be resinated, but would probably have no say at all in how the post-napoleonic world is set up. In this scenario (as said, if Napoleon falls) this would more or less exclusivel ybe negotiated between Russia and Britain.

Russia cant really be dissolved. Too much strategic depth. Most people here agree to prepare for the Russian campaign Napoleon should have the Duchy of Warsaw raised to reform the Polish Kingdom or even the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and maybe some former territories of the PLC could have been conquered. But that wouldnt be a stable situation, and Russia could probably still make a major comeback.
 
He could have had the Holy Roman Empire strip the King of Prussia of his title and make him the Duke of Brandenburg again, rob him of his electoral seat and then strip away all Prussian gains from the Seven Years war and the Polish divisions.
Force the Hapsburgs to resign, or just make them Dukes of Austria and transfer the Imperial crown to someone else (himself? Double awesome). Strip Austria of Hungary etc. and make some sort of successor state (or give them to the Ottomans, I'm sure he'd want an ally for any second invasion of Egypt he may have planned).
For Russia, reinstate the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and give Poland military aid before attacking. As with Russia, timing is everything and he couldn't attack with Britain threatening his rear in Portugal and by sea. If Britain is somehow inactive/destroyed (or disabled etc.) and he had free reign in Russia then he could simply invade the Baltic and take St. Petersburg. With the coast taken, hold out during winter in the capital and then the next Spring march on Moscow. Reinstate the Muscovy Grand Princedom etc. maybe strengthen Sweden.

So basically return Europe to pre-Seven Years war conditions but with him instead of Lous XIV and with far more power. He could get France's 'natural borders' down and have puppet Republics in Italy and the Low Countries. His Confederacy of the Rhine could be part of a reformed HRE with the leadership of some stooge.
 
Ahh, very very good! :D What I'm aiming though if for a indepedant Germany, unified by a power thats not Austria or Prussia though, so I still need Napoleon to be defeated...

Hmm, would it be possible for the most part of your plan Saepe Fidelis, to suceed, but before he can completley break Russia die from some sort of accident? How much confusion would this create in France and within the high command?
 
How about Napoleon just dying of old age around 1840, and his creation Kingdom of Westphalia becoming the nucleus of german unification?
 
Ahh, very very good! :D What I'm aiming though if for a indepedant Germany, unified by a power thats not Austria or Prussia though, so I still need Napoleon to be defeated...

Hmm, would it be possible for the most part of your plan Saepe Fidelis, to suceed, but before he can completley break Russia die from some sort of accident? How much confusion would this create in France and within the high command?

Well the plan hinges on having minimal interference from Britain. The fact is that Britain wouldn't want:
1- Napoleon with France and the HRE under his command, having such population and industrial potential would make him virtually unstoppable.
2-A Catholic power, presumably the HRE would still be Catholic and its strengthening at the expense of Prussia and the Protestant powers.

If you want a German unification, then how about this:
Bavaria, being mainly Catholic and close to Austria, sides with Napoleon and following the collapse of the Austrian Empire in 1810 and the dissolution of the Hapsburg Monarchy its King is made Holy Roman Emperor andbecomes a French protectorate. Meanwhile, 'Germany' is split between the Confederacy of the Rhine, a new Austrian kingdom which controls Bohemia and Silesia and is under the command of Napoleon's brother.
Prussia is eviscerated by Austria and Poland as it is reduced to its 17th century borders. The Hohenzollerens are stripped of their crowns and robbed of their Electoral seat.
With Bavaria leading the HRE it exploits Britain's blockade of France to sell iron etc. cheap to Napoleon, takign credit as well. Napoleon meanwhile masses an attack for Russia set to be made in 1815. He ignored Spain, signing an unequal treaty agreeing to prop up the existing King which all but opens Spain up for French occupation. Britain stations troops in Portugal.
1815. Napoleon invades Russia. With 1.5 million men he marches to the gates of Moscow and burns the city to the ground, leaving only the Cathedral and St. Basil's. The Tsar is forced to retreat and a resistence is organised. Looking for allies, he casts around Europe. InWinter 1816 an alliance is signed. Bavaria, Prussia, Poland-Lithuania, Britain and Russia all jointly declare war on France. With the army in Russia and under winter quarters Eurpe is undefended. The Duke of Wellington invades Spain and swiftly topples the King and the French presense there.
Bavaria, meanwhile, crushes Austria and occupies Vienna. They then rush north through the Rhineland where several great battles are fought. Finally they link up with Prussia's army under generla Blucher, and they defeat Marshall Ney and occupy the Rhineland.
Napoleon, meanwhile, forces his army back through the winter. He loses some 370,000 men to cold and cossacks. The rest swiftly crush Poland-Lithuania and Prussia, its forces in the west, is defeated, with Konigsburg burnt and Berlin occupied. Napoleon marches through the Prussian heartland where fierce resistence is encountered from the Junkers and the Landeswehr units, militia trained in guerilla warfare. The Emperor is struck by a bullet and killed.
The end of Napoleon in early 1817 brings a premature end to the war. The final status quo has only two winners. The first is Britain, who takes India, Gibralter, the Balaerics and obtains a protectorate over Egypt (the Ottoman Emp. had allied with Napoleon.) The second is Bavaria, who gains large amounts of land in the Rhineland, the Confederacy of the Rhine signing its independence away at the Council of Vienna, where a new Europe is hammered out.
Bavaria establishes its hegemony over Germany and Prussia too is forced in. With massive losses, including her own king and her finest generals she is too weak to fight on. The new Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is too strong for her even ,and a brief war in 1819 proves this as Berlin is besieged and Poland seizes the 'Polish Corridor'.
Most surprising are two things. The first is Russia. Having lost so many men and so many cities she is in no position to make demands, and Britain refuses to back her claims in Poland-Lithuania. She is forced to cede her lost territories to the new Commonwealth, avenging herself i nhe Balkans where she takes Moldavia and establishes proectorates around the Danube.
The second is France. With considerable military might still at her disposable, the treaty made is not as stringent as it would have otherwise been. The Tsar was keen for France to be dismembered between a new Burgundian kingdom and an enlarged Netherlands, yet such suggestions were dismissed. France obtained, finally, its 'natural borders' as the Rhine was made a frontier. The government was in turmoil, however, as the generals fought for supremecy. It took Bavarian adn British steel to impose a peace. The so-called 1818-1821 civil war was ended by a Bourbon restoration. Louis XVIII was crowned King in Rheims in 1822.

Bavaria would go on to industrialise throughout the mid 19th century while bringing more states under her control. The continued Holy Roman Empire was abolished in 1849 after Nationalist uprisings across Europe. It was replaced with the German Confederacy, led by Bavaria with a limping Prussia a shadow of its former self. In 1856 Prussia, Saxony, Austria and Westphalia formed the Deutchesbund, which was meant to be a counter-balance to Bavaria. War was declared, and in 1856 an alliance was signed between Poland and Bavaria. A two-pronged attack saw Austria and Prusia crumple. The rest fell into line and finally in 1858 the King of Bavaria was acclaimed Emperor of Germany and the Second Empire announced. East Prussia was ceded to Poland yet Austria, Bohemia and Moravia were brought into the fold.

Is that good enough, I whacked it out in a few minutes. This is actually a pretty good idea, if you're writing a TL I'd love to contribute.
 
This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to see!! :D I'm thinking about writing a TL and your help would be very much appricated! Not just yet though, I have some exams comming up and I'm needing to focus on revision for the moment. :mad:


Thank you for all the help! :)
 
This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to see!! :D I'm thinking about writing a TL and your help would be very much appricated! Not just yet though, I have some exams comming up and I'm needing to focus on revision for the moment. :mad:


Thank you for all the help! :)

Thanks for that. I know, I've got GCSEs coming up so I haven't much time either. But when we're both free of our revisionary burdens; then we shall create a new Europe.
 

Susano

Banned
He could have had the Holy Roman Empire
You mean the one abolished in 1806? And Prussia proper, the title-giving part of the Hohenzollern realm was outside the HRE. Oh, and while were at it Brandenburg is a Margraviate, and to strip people of electoral dignity the Emperor would have to gain the approval of the Electoral College and probably the Imperial Diet as well. Not gonna happen - but also irrelevant because as said by the time Nappy moved against Prussia the HRE was dead, dead, dead!
 
You mean the one abolished in 1806? And Prussia proper, the title-giving part of the Hohenzollern realm was outside the HRE. Oh, and while were at it Brandenburg is a Margraviate, and to strip people of electoral dignity the Emperor would have to gain the approval of the Electoral College and probably the Imperial Diet as well. Not gonna happen - but also irrelevant because as said by the time Nappy moved against Prussia the HRE was dead, dead, dead!

Napoleon had over a million men under arms. He can do what he wants. He's smashed Austria, Prussia, the Italian and German states; no one can stop him. He can do whatever he wants when it comes to Germany.
Like Pompey said: "Stop quoting law- we carry swords."
 

Susano

Banned
Napoleon had over a million men under arms. He can do what he wants. He's smashed Austria, Prussia, the Italian and German states; no one can stop him. He can do whatever he wants when it comes to Germany.
Like Pompey said: "Stop quoting law- we carry swords."

Thing is, you quoted laws. Its simply physically impossible to force a political entity that doesnt exist anymore to do anything, no matter how many swords you have ;)
 
Thing is, you quoted laws. Its simply physically impossible to force a political entity that doesnt exist anymore to do anything, no matter how many swords you have ;)

Ok so maybe the grand old HRE is a little anachronistic. But given the circumstances, some sort of German confederacy with one of Napoleon's relatives as its leader is most likey. Given that the HRE was recently dissolved and had a central leader that would be easily manipulated it seems the easiest thing for Napoleon to do. He's crushed Prussia and Austria so he can force them back in and then make it his puppet.
If it's not the HRE then he'll do what he did IOTL and mass the German states together into about six/seven kingdoms but with a kind of Confederacy and with French garrisons in the major cities.
 

Susano

Banned
Ok so maybe the grand old HRE is a little anachronistic. But given the circumstances, some sort of German confederacy with one of Napoleon's relatives as its leader is most likey.
You mean the Rhine Confederation with Nappy himself as leader? ;) Well, at least OTL - there was no interrim side between RC and HRE IOTL either, as the HRE was dissolve dwhen most states joined the RC. Of course IOTL Prussia was never part of it.

I think however Nappy smply wouldnt bother with that ceremonial stuff and dissolve Prussia by fiat and treaty. Est Prussia to Russia (if Russias still an ally), West Prussia (together with "South Prussia" IOTL) to any Poland/Duchy of Warsaw Nappy might create, Silesia to Austria, maybe Pommerania to Sweden maybe not, and rump-Brandenburg under a new ruler - maybe Jerome and ITTL the misnamed Kingdom of Westphalia is not created.
 
You mean the Rhine Confederation with Nappy himself as leader? ;) Well, at least OTL - there was no interrim side between RC and HRE IOTL either, as the HRE was dissolve dwhen most states joined the RC. Of course IOTL Prussia was never part of it.

I think however Nappy smply wouldnt bother with that ceremonial stuff and dissolve Prussia by fiat and treaty. Est Prussia to Russia (if Russias still an ally), West Prussia (together with "South Prussia" IOTL) to any Poland/Duchy of Warsaw Nappy might create, Silesia to Austria, maybe Pommerania to Sweden maybe not, and rump-Brandenburg under a new ruler - maybe Jerome and ITTL the misnamed Kingdom of Westphalia is not created.

Very interesting, I think he's want to keep the Austrians on side by giving them something of Prussia- maybe Upper Silesia. Poland would be strengthed, give them E. Prussia so they can serve as a buffer state between France & the RC and Russia. He can also use it as a launching pad for an invasion of Russia.
 
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