What's the Strongest Schlieffen Plan Result?

A lot of people point out that the Schlieffen Plan was doomed from the start and had no way of achieving it's primary goals. But one can hardly say it wasn't beneficial to the German position, taking a huge proportion of the French industry it made fighting the inevitable two front war possible. But my question is this. Let's assume that the Germans get everything right. The best troop deployment, the best decisions on the ground and the greatest luck. How far could they progress and what would these conditions be?

Phase two of the Western Front was the Race to the Sea. In an optimal Schlieffen Plan could the German's have won and how would that effect future war plans? Could Molke have survived in such a timeline?
 
If they get it right, they capture the BEF, French 5th, 4th and 3rd armies in a huge cauldron in Northern France/Southern Belgium. That would be considered a decisive victory, now substantial forces can be sent east.
 
1] French Fifth Army is encircled and destroyed early on This reduces French strength but it slows the progress of the German right wing by 3-4 days

2] First Army swings left of Paris but not try to take it

3] French Sixth Army eventually tries to counterattack the flank of the First Army and is encircled and destroyed. After this the German right wing is exhausted and are far from their railheads to be effectively supplied. They pause on the Marne

4] Meanwhile the eastern wing wins at Revigny encircling most or all of the French Third Army at Verdun. However it will take a month though for this pocket to be eliminated

5] A German thrust at Paris in late Sept fails. After that there is a race to the Sea and again the German best case is their right flank is on the Somme all the way to the Channel. The Belgian Army is eliminated and King Albert begins negotiating a peace treaty with the Germans.

6] Meanwhile in the East there is Tannenberg but no Masurian Lakes. A serious Russian threat to Silesia in mid Oct forces Moltke to reinforce Hindenburg. This prevents a major offensive in the West even after Verdun surrenders.
 
The opportunity to encircle the 5th Army occurted on 20-24th August, but there was no Army group command to make it happen.
 
Moltke sticks to the plan and puts everyone on the right. The British delay in DOWing Germany, and the BEF arrives late. Joffre is killed in a car crash*. Fifth Army crumples and the Germans are able to hit the First-Third in the rear. France sues by Christmas. No problem.

*It happened to... er, one of the generals in 1940, so :p at your ASBs.

Yes, it relies on even more going exactly right for the Germans than IOTL, but so did 1940. It was definitely possible.
 

Deleted member 1487

The most realistic option would be OTL, but realizing that Paris is out of reach, stopping short of the Marne, setting up defenses and starting the race to the sea earlier. This may mean Flanders goes to Germany and the front line sets up on the Somme. As an added maybe the BEF gets bypassed and wiped out as the French flail at the line further to the south. This scenario means the Uboots are farther forward, Britain commits for forces at home, as fears of invasion hold them back for defense, the German lines are shorter, which means more troops, earlier for the east front. More of France's industry is in Germany's hands and perhaps the High Seas Fleet has extra basing options to harrass Britain. It also means greater mining of the channel, which complicates traffic for supply. Overall much better for the Central Powers and means Verdun becomes a focal point earlier, as the Germans now have extra troops for pinching it off. But the allies have shorter lines too, which means it takes some pressure off France and allows for a greater reserve. The Allies are unlikely to have greater success attacking that OTL, as the ground is essentially the same, but if the Kinder Mord doesn't happen, then Germany has more troops and is better off in the deal.

That would be the ideal realistic result, as the Germans would not be overstreched with their flank in the air while attacking the French forts around Paris. That scenario ends with Allied counter attacks and lots of dead/captured Germans. Likely to end in a quicker war with the Central Powers losing earlier and the East Front going worse in 1914, as the Germans have far less troops in the West and a strong need to pull back to stablize. Front line closer to Germany and more of France liberated, probably parts of Belgium too.
 
If Germany keeps the original strong Right Wing, Then Belgium falls faster.
The race for the sea takes place inside France. With the line running from north of Paris to reach the Sea at/in Flanders.
This put all of Belgium with Antwerp in German Hands, Increasing the British Blockade difficulty.
Germany can move some of the HSF to Antwerp. Germany also has a lock on the Belgium Harvests.
 
Germany keeps the strong right wing and gets bogged down faster. The German Army was advancing faster than its supply lines and the various corps commanders were talking to each other, but were communicating with von Moltke miles behind the swiftly moving battleline.

The Schlieffen Plan - if it really existed - wouldn't have resulted in a German victory.
 
I think that with an Army Group command level the 3-4 right wing armies could have been coordinated to encircle the 5th French army, perhaps reach Paris and almost certainly reach the sea on about the Somme river. I thnk the trench lines wuold be shorter, but coast guns etc would make up for the shortfall. However Britain would be on the back foot, and nort very able to help its allies, perhaps Gallipoli would be abandoned, causing dounts for the Russians and the BEF would certainly be smaller and grow more slowly, directly affecting the French.
 
I'm drawn to the view that the best outcome for Germany could be acheived by not building the HSF and investing in a huge fleet of lorries (trucks) instead. One of their critical problems is the right wing just had too much ground to cover and it had to be done with a succession of exhausting forced marches.
 
re

The Germans moved troops from the left wing and lunched an offensive with the right wing aiming at a double envelopment, plus them transferred troops to East Prussia.
So yes if they had followed the plan it could have worked.
 
The Germans moved troops from the left wing and lunched an offensive with the right wing aiming at a double envelopment, plus them transferred troops to East Prussia.
So yes if they had followed the plan it could have worked.

It never would have worked in time of lunch or dinner.
 
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