What's the best deal France can make and take at Versailles?

[kham_coc]

Consign the fantasy that France can beat Germany alone to the asheap of history - And at that point most of the things you can ask from Germany are pointless and serve no purpose beyond irritating Germany into being a revisionist power, tied into this is that France's eastern policy did not make any sense, nor could be made into being any sense.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

France does not take back Alsace-Lorraine

 

[Curtain Jerker]

France does not take back Alsace-Lorraine

That would never in a million years be acceptable to the French public and is therefore a non-starter.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

That would never in a million years be acceptable to the French public and is therefore a non-starter.

True, but it would be a slightly better deal (as in less fury and resentment on both sides). Alternately, France stays out of the Rhineland

 

[marathag]

The best deal I could think of was something like creating the Kingdom of Rhineland in the West.

This would be central.

Making a stronger South Germany, that included Austria, Baden, Bavaria, Rhineland-Pfalz and Würtemberg-Hohenzollern as a counterweight, while Saarland an 'independent' Protectorate as it was Post-WWII or 'Territory of the Saar Basin' as the League of Nations did, but not an occupied puppet as OTL

 

[Curtain Jerker]

True, but it would be a slightly better deal (as in less fury and resentment on both sides). Alternately, France stays out of the Rhineland

I think in a timeline where France doesn't get back A-L they, not Italy, have the "mutilated victory" syndrome and they, not Italy, are the ones who go full-blown fascist as a result.

But then again, there's no real way France doesn't get back A-L with a POD of 11/11/1918 so it is sort of a moot point.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I think in a timeline where France doesn't get back A-L they, not Italy, have the "mutilated victory" syndrome and they, not Italy, are the ones who go full-blown fascist as a result.

But then again, there's no real way France doesn't get back A-L with a POD of 11/11/1918 so it is sort of a moot point.

True. I wonder about a fascist France now

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Perhaps France could have reconcilled with the Weimar Republic. Weimar Germany was more interested in expanding east and recovering lost land from Poland. A Weimar Germany that reconcilled with France might have survived and not be replaced by Nazi Germany if it was allowed some success in foreign policy to secure its legitimacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locarno_Treaties

Bring Germany into the tent, instead of trying to keep them out. It could have some success, but the Depression is going to hit Germany hard and reparations are going to be a key part of that.

 

[kham_coc]

That would never in a million years be acceptable to the French public and is therefore a non-starter.

True, the actual policy should have been, Do not engage in revanchism over it.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

True, the actual policy should have been, Do not engage in revanchism over it.

That was never an option against the then backdrop of nationalism, power politics and war.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

To keep Germany contained, France needs either an alliance with the United States or an alliance with Russia. It would be helpful if Britain joined either alliance, but an alliance with Britain alone proved not to be enough in 1940.

On paper, didn’t France and Britain have the resources and manpower to fight Germany in 1940? From what I‘ve read, it seemed to be more of a problem with doctrine and tactics.

I don’t think taking back Alsace-Lorraine was a problem and given a French losses, the public probably wouldn’t have accepted anything less.

 

[DracoLazarus]

France does not take back Alsace-Lorraine

France doesn't sign a treaty that doesn't give back Alsace-Lorraine and just sits on the crippled Germany until it has it back.
That's the clincher : there are very few points that are make or break in the treaty, but if those aren't reached, the war resumes and France curbstomps Germany.
And the three départements of Alsace and Moselle are part of them.

 

[SlideAway]

There also really was not a lot of heartburn over Alsace-Lorraine in Germany. The big German revanchist claims in the interwar period were in Poland.

(FWIW, even the Sudeten lands and Austria were not a major focus, those were very much Nazi and pan-Germanist preoccupations. Much of the old Prussian Right had no interest in bringing in a bunch of a Catholic Austrians into Germany.)

 

[AltoRegnant]

France does not take back Alsace-Lorraine

how on earth is this better for france?

 

[ferdi254]

France simply has to enforce the military part of the treaty. The moment Germany intoduces concription just send a couple divisions to pay Hitler a visit in Berlin.
Actually those would have only needed to get to Aachen and Hitler folds.

For the economical part just do a reverse Frankfurt. Scrap all the parts that seriously hampered German trade (confiscation of merchant marine, scrapping patents and trade marks, no one sided most favored nation status)

and as you are at it scrap the pages with the hundreds of nitty gritty points…

and occupy the Rhineland (not the Ruhr for heavens sake) until Germany did pay. A hefty amount but one there is a clear reachable end to it.

Oh and of course as in revers Frankfurt, leave Germany the ability to have means to pay. And of course any confiscated German possession counts as payment.

And before someone screams of course add it to the bill upfront so you end up with the same money but a much more palatable treaty.

 

[raharris1973]

France simply has to enforce the military part of the treaty. The moment Germany intoduces concription just send a couple divisions to pay Hitler a visit in Berlin.
Actually those would have only needed to get to Aachen and Hitler folds.

For the economical part just do a reverse Frankfurt. Scrap all the parts that seriously hampered German trade (confiscation of merchant marine, scrapping patents and trade marks, no one sided most favored nation status)

and as you are at it scrap the pages with the hundreds of nitty gritty points…

and occupy the Rhineland (not the Ruhr for heavens sake) until Germany did pay. A hefty amount but one there is a clear reachable end to it.

Oh and of course as in revers Frankfurt, leave Germany the ability to have means to pay.

Can France really enforce other people respecting German intellectual property (patents and trademarks).

 

[Dan Handsome]

True, but it would be a slightly better deal (as in less fury and resentment on both sides). Alternately, France stays out of the Rhineland

Um, no. There would be less resentment oj the German side and even more resentment on the French side. Take the stab-in-the-back sentiment and turn in to 300. What's to stop Germany from marching on Paris again? Maybe they'll be given Belgium as a participation trophy.

 

[ferdi254]

As everybody should have done so it is not a matter of enforcement but of insight.

 

[Deleted member 169412]

France does not take back Alsace-Lorraine

No. Any French government that did that would be seen as having mutilated France's victory in ways that would make Italian nationalists' complaints look like nothing by comparison. For about 50 years French children had been taught that Alsace-Lorraine was an integral part of France and pro-war propaganda in France was focused on reconquering Alsace-Lorraine. If the government of France collectively went insane and let a Weimar Germany keep Alsace-Lorraine then a right-wing nationalist coup would quickly take place and... well, how does "fascism, but French and on steroids" sound?

 

[Elfwine]

I think what kind of outcome France wants from this treaty is going to be crucial as far as specific terms. If France insists here on treating Germany as an enemy to be kept down no matter what that's going to brew bitterness far more than reclaiming Alsace-Lorraine or demanding an indemnity possibly could on its own.

As far as France's allies go, that willing to stop German dominance of continental Europe doesn't mean eager to see France supreme west of Russia is going to come in there.

This may not matter in the immediate future, but in ten years? In twenty years? It won't be the same situation, but it doesn't need to be if the goal is peace with Germany.