What's In a Name? Origins and Alternates of Ethnonyms

[The Professor]

The recent disucssion about the name of Macedonia has inspired me to reopen discussion about the names of people and places; and also to see what ATL versions people have come up with.


The (unsubstantiated!) idea that the Germanic tribes/confederations Saxons and Franks are named after their weapons, Saxe = Knife, Franca = Javelin, made me think if it would be possible to have other such names eg. Gerons from Ger = Spear, or Axons from Ax = Axe. Indeed maybe the word Ger had some influence on the name German(ic). It is currently thought that the Latin Germani is derived from Gaulish Gair meaning neighbour, though it may just be a reference to the Germanic tribes as “brotherhoods”.


The Germanic tribes tended to refer to their non-Germanic neighbours as foreigners whence we get Wales, Wallonia, Wallachia, and interestingly Gaul. Yep, Gaul is not derived from Gallia but from the Frankish Walha.
Another word often confused with meaning Gallic or Celtic is Gael. Instead Gael is derived from Goidhel (or Gwyddel in Welsh) roughly meaning pirate or raider.
The Greeks called Ireland Ierne or Iouernia which is derived from ProtoGoidelic Iveriu/Iweriu itself the root for Eire and Ireland. The Romans associated Ivernia with winter and so called it Hibernia.


The Slavic words for German (Nemtsi etc) likely derive from nemi meaning mute contrasting with slovo meaning speaking. Contrastingly barbarian comes from Ancient Greek barbaros originally meaning babbling.
The word slave comes from the word for Slav as the Romans captured a lot as Slavs as slaves.


It is interesting how names for places and languages also change across ethnolinguistic lines eg. French is a Romance language but its root label Frankish is Germanic, Bulgarian is Slavic but comes from Bulgar which was Turkic.


What similar things interest you? And what ATL versions have you created?

 

[The Professor]

And let us not forget the Germanic tendency to call dynasties after the "founder":
Carolingians or Karlings - after Charles-the-Great
Arnulfings - after Arnulf of Metz
Liudolfings - after Liudolf of Saxony (aka the Ottonians)

The pseudoetymology of Thuringia as Sons of Thor/Thunar/etc also make me want to create Wo(d)anings

 

[Prem_Rack]

The alternative for Hungarian becoming Ogres.
They were sometimes called Ougri by early chronicles (from Onogurs, which seems to be their name they were using - inheriting it after group of Huns/Bulgars btw).

 

[Wolfpaw]

The Poles could end up being called "Lechs" with Poland becoming "Lechia."

 

[Greyfang]

ummmm Macedonia means highlanders in Greek

 

[Theodoric]

I've always been fond of the Theod- part of Germanic names. Ofcourse, it's already being used by the Germans), but there still are other possible users. Plenty of germanic language, each with their own version of it.

 

[Flocculencio]

"Indian" is pretty arbitrary- the Sanskrit name for India was Bharat (which is how it's referred to in the Indian National Anthem). Hindustan is Persian.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Yucatan has a dozen hypotheses as to where the name came from. The most popular version seems to be that it is a Spanish corruption of the Mayan for "I don't understand what you're saying."

 

[Umbric Man]

Speaking as a etho/exonymist/toponymist, for the love of God, keep this topic going as long as it possibly can.

 

[Eigenwelt]

The pseudoetymology of Thuringia as Sons of Thor/Thunar/etc also make me want to create Wo(d)anings

I know you'd have to drop that last syllable, but Wodnings has a very cool ring to it. Or even a corruption into Woadnings which would obscure the origins. With woad being a mustard plant grown for it's blue dye, you'd have alot of good symbology. People of Woden, the blue people, the bitter people, etc.


Also, it may be a bit anachronistic, but a combination of Tiw/Ziu/Tiwaz and the noun volk to give a Tiwvolk/Tuvolk/Ziuvolk meaning "people of the warrior god" or "people of war" would be a pretty awesome ATL name for an ultra-agressive german people.

 

[The Professor]

I know you'd have to drop that last syllable, but Wodnings has a very cool ring to it. Or even a corruption into Woadnings which would obscure the origins. With woad being a mustard plant grown for it's blue dye, you'd have alot of good symbology. People of Woden, the blue people, the bitter people, etc.

It's why I like it

Anyways, keep the spelling but pronounce it woanings and we have the best of both
Not sure about the "Tewfolk". It's a shame the germanic gods had such unhelpful names...

 

[iori]

"Indian" is pretty arbitrary- the Sanskrit name for India was Bharat (which is how it's referred to in the Indian National Anthem). Hindustan is Persian.

Not really, India's a simple derivation from the ancient Greek Indus.

Indusia simply does'nt sound good, so we get India.

 

[Alex Richards]

I've got a project going on at the moment on just this subject.

Pakistan is a nice one. Although it is merely an acronym of the Raj provinces Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and Balochistan, it also means land of the pure in Sanskrit.

 

[Petike]

A very good thread. Hope it keeps growing (well, if)...

The Slavic words for German (Nemtsi etc) likely derive from nemi meaning mute contrasting with slovo meaning speaking. Contrastingly barbarian comes from Ancient Greek barbaros originally meaning babbling. The word slave comes from the word for Slav as the Romans captured a lot as Slavs as slaves.

Yeah, that's pretty much correct. The Slovak variant, "Nemec", is word-for-word "Muter" or a slightly mangled "Mute one" (Nemý).

And that specific Latin term was sclavus. There is probably a connection there, since slave and Slav are homonyms in Latin. It's still a bit odd though - the Slavs were less close to the empire's borders than other ethnicities before the Great Migration era. Or did the term originate only after the GM (when the Slavs started moving into the province of Pannonia and the Balkan peninsula) ?

Pakistan is a nice one. Although it is merely an acronym of the Raj provinces Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and Balochistan, it also means land of the pure in Sanskrit.

The method they used to create the country's name always amused me.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

The word slave comes from the word for Slav as the Romans captured a lot as Slavs as slaves.

Actually, the Romans of Antiquity didn't know about the Slavs at all (the first mentioning of the Slavic peoples occurs relatively late, as far as I know - clearly after the fall of the Roman Empire). The Latin word for slave is actually 'servus'. Unless by Roman you mean the Byzantines (or the Holy Roman Empire, durrrh! ), that statement is clearly wrong. Sorry.

 

[Prem_Rack]

A very good thread. Hope it keeps growing (well, if)...



Yeah, that's pretty much correct. The Slovak variant, "Nemec", is word-for-word "Muter" or a slightly mangled "Mute one" (Nemý).

And that specific Latin term was sclavus. There is probably a connection there, since slave and Slav are homonyms in Latin. It's still a bit odd though - the Slavs were less close to the empire's borders than other ethnicities before the Great Migration era. Or did the term originate only after the GM (when the Slavs started moving into the province of Pannonia and the Balkan peninsula) ?

IIRC it's medieval term. As you said Slaves only appeared in history after GM.

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

IIRC it's medieval term. As you said Slaves only appeared in history after GM.

Which pinpoints back to a classic question: where did the Slavic people live prior the Migrations Period, and how that come nobody mentioned them before and then they suddenly pop up?

 

[Chris S]

The alternative for Hungarian becoming Ogres.
They were sometimes called Ougri by early chronicles (from Onogurs, which seems to be their name they were using - inheriting it after group of Huns/Bulgars btw).

The Poles could end up being called "Lechs" with Poland becoming "Lechia."

Oh God, just imagine the derogatory names that would be developed:

Hungarians - Ogres!

Poles - Leeches!

Thank God those names (Ougri and Lechs) never caught on in English.

 

[Atom]

Not really, India's a simple derivation from the ancient Greek Indus.

Indusia simply does'nt sound good, so we get India.

But India is far far more then just the Indus. It doesn't make much sense. It's like naming two continents after some guy who wrote some journals about his travel there. It would just be silly.

 

[SRT]

Didn't the whole Slav/slave thing come into English from the Vikings, who were involved a lot with trading/conquering the Slavs, and selling them around the Mediterranean as slaves? That was how I understood it, anyway.