What's a realistic scenario where a German action causes the US to declare war before December 1941?

If you need a very quick casus belli, just have a U boat sink the SS America liner after it misidentified a US freighter bound for the UK. 7,500 person capacity, and normal routes from NYC to London.

According to Wikipedia they increased the height of the funnels some time after it was launched to stop soot getting on the deck this could cause a U-boat to mistake it for a false flag ship. Of cause if you like a conspiracy theory there were a pair of Germany spies in the crew the Brits could find out about them and feed them some false information that could make the Germany navy target it.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Overt interference in the US occupation of Iceland Summer of 1941. Ie: submarine attack/s on US war ship/s executing the occupation.

Multiple incidents of German warships operating inside the Exclusion Zone/Nuetrality Zone.

Sabatoge in Latin America resulting in many deaths, including US citizens.

Instigating one or more bloody coups in Latin America.
Add some black Tom like sabotage to some war industries even ones that are basically exporting to the UK
 
The USA actually managed to acquire a map that supposedly laid out German plans to redraw the borders of South America in the post-war world order; it even got publicity from President Roosevelt revealing it to Congress. The Germans furiously denied it and denounced it as a fake.

Thing is, though: that map was fake. It was a forgery fabricated by the British, in an attempt to convince America to join the war on the Allies' side.

Indeed. Which is why you'd need harder proof which would come from actual German initiatives; especially if one of said attempts actually succeeds. Something like captured smugglers carrying German arms, defectors from the conspiratorial clique testifying and revealing names (From inside the safety of the US, of course, likely for a cushy retirement-in-exile), ect.
 
You could make the argument that at any point post-March 1941 there could have been an incdident that led to war given that the USN and the Kriegmsarine were actively shooting at each other. In the past it’s been mentioned that if the U-Boat that trailed the USS Texas had sunk her in June then the popular outrage would have been far greater than the sinking of the Reuben James and would have been enough to get a DoW through Congress.
 
If you need a very quick casus belli, just have a U boat sink the SS America liner after it misidentified a US freighter bound for the UK. 7,500 person capacity, and normal routes from NYC to London.
It seems a rather fast ship for a random U-boat sinking; didn't they mostly target slow-and-simple freighters because they were much easier to sink?
 
It seems a rather fast ship for a random U-boat sinking; didn't they mostly target slow-and-simple freighters because they were much easier to sink?

Looks like the SS America could do 35 knots. The HMS Courageous was at 30 knots, for example, so I'll have to defer to someone with more knowledge of U-Boat capability to say whether that's a wide enough margin to make a difference.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Looks like the SS America could do 35 knots. The HMS Courageous was at 30 knots, for example, so I'll have to defer to someone with more knowledge of U-Boat capability to say whether that's a wide enough margin to make a difference.
SS America could only do 22 knots. 23 on a good day with a clean bottom. A U-Boat in the right position could easily sink her.
 
There were a few incidents in September 1941 where Germany attacked a US destroyer and later sunk a merchant vessel. FDR could've seized upon these as a casus belli, but he passed on these opportunities and decided to wait until a better chance to declare war. Ultimately that chance came with Pearl Harbor, an attack not just on US vessels but also US soil. Perhaps Roosevelt could've gotten a declaration of war on Germany in September, but unlike in OTL there would actually be some debate on the measure like in 1917. Having been a member of Wilson's administration, that was probably something FDR deliberately avoided so that America would have a more unified war effort with a broad majority convinced they had no choice but to fight. So getting into the war before Dec. 1941 is possible, but difficult given the isolationist bloc that would still be very powerful without Pearl Harbor to chance their minds.
 
I like the idea of the Nazis forcing the French to grant basing in the French West Indies and French Guyana. These U-boats are sinking ships in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, maybe even a merchant raider or two. This has the potential for American flag ships to be sunk in significant numbers, potentially even in US territorial waters or quite close. Air elements in the FWI mistakenly attack a US four stacker (remember the Brits got some) or another USN vessel...
 
In early 1941, the old US battleships New York and Texas were stationed in the Denmark Strait (between Greenland and Iceland). They alternated patrol stints, switching off every few weeks. The ship going on patrol would depart when the other returned to the US, so there were periods when neither was there.

If one of them had been there in May 1941, when Bismarck entered the North Atlantic via the Denmark Strait... It's at least possible that Bismarck and say Texas could have met at night, and that the encounter could have resulted in an exchange of fire escalating into a full battle at close range. In such a battle, Bismarck would have the advantage, but the American ship could still inflict heavy damage. Bismarck also had a companion, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, which had torpedoes.

So the US ship could be sunk. I think that would be enough.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
In early 1941, the old US battleships New York and Texas were stationed in the Denmark Strait (between Greenland and Iceland). They alternated patrol stints, switching off every few weeks. The ship going on patrol would depart when the other returned to the US, so there were periods when neither was there.

If one of them had been there in May 1941, when Bismarck entered the North Atlantic via the Denmark Strait... It's at least possible that Bismarck and say Texas could have met at night, and that the encounter could have resulted in an exchange of fire escalating into a full battle at close range. In such a battle, Bismarck would have the advantage, but the American ship could still inflict heavy damage. Bismarck also had a companion, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, which had torpedoes.

So the US ship could be sunk. I think that would be enough.

What is to stop that from being resolved as an”oops, mistaken identity” especially since it is surface ship to surface ship and less dastardly than a sub attack?
 

SsgtC

Banned
What is to stop that from being resolved as an”oops, mistaken identity” especially since it is surface ship to surface ship and less dastardly than a sub attack?
Because nations place a lot of emphasis on capital ships. Attacking one, even by accident, has always been considered an act of war.
 
Because nations place a lot of emphasis on capital ships. Attacking one, even by accident, has always been considered an act of war.

Emotion usually counts for more than logic. Tho I don't think Congress will vote a DoW the next day after the Texas is sunk. The probable cause of events is the Neutrality patrol is dialed up on the aggressive meter several numbers, the occupation of Iceland which had been negotiated the previous month is accelerated. More publicity for the Iceland occupation.

There is also the possibility the carrier Ranger is also on patrol and in position to help the Brits search for the Bismarck if it continues south. I don't recall its precise position, but it was patrolling the Exclusion Zone in May. If the Ranger is ordered to do a air search it would also be authorized to 'act in self defense', leading to its dive bombers having target practice on the German ship/s.

In any case either the German navy is ordered to back off and cease confrontation with the US, or more incidents occur & war is effectively under way whatever the isolationists argue.

Yet another possibility is the Texas gets the advantage in a short range gunfight. Under weather conditions that existed in the Denmark strait in May the ships will have radar warning, but have to get very close to get gunnery solutions at night. I'm guessing under 5,000 meters range. Not only does this obviates some of the Bismarcks advantages it plays to some of the US ships advantages. If the Texas has any destroyer escorts a US torpedo attack is likely.
 
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