What're ways Portugal could've kept Brazil?

Is there anyway for a reverse “keeping” if you will?

Such as, could Brazil be the new center of the kingdom and be the center of domination and have hegemony over Portugal in a certain scenario?

IDK, Brazil will always be Hungary and Portugal, Austria.

Still, in a long term, one can say that Hungary had more potential to be the economic center of A-H if it lasted longer.
 
This isn't a question of mere prejudice, the question here is the representation of a vast population with very different political interests. The greatest Portuguese diplomat, Alexandre de Gusmão, was Brazilian. Heck, Portugal even had a Brazilian-born queen and a Brazilian-born president!

I wasn't referring to just prejudice, but also interests, Nicolau is still a good example as he considered a national hero while being ignored for promotion at the same time, because the European officers were usually favoured over those born in the colonies, the nobility and the clergy will never accept to share the power, unless they are forced to do it, look at the Porto Rebellion, the Liberal wanted to end absolutism and impose a Constitution on the Monarchy, a Constitution that was considered very innovative for it's time, but not even they, which one would assume would be more willing to compromise with Brasil, were willing to accept the post-Napoleonic reality, that Brasil was no longer a colony.

Best it would happen, as I said before here, would be a nominal subservience of Brasil, a Dominion relationship is you wish to call it that, that there wouldn't be one parliament for the two Kingdom, there would be one for Portugal and another for Brasil, and after the 1860's, when Brasil's population is double that of Portugal, this would be even more nominal than before.
 
Is there anyway for a reverse “keeping” if you will?

Such as, could Brazil be the new center of the kingdom and be the center of domination and have hegemony over Portugal in a certain scenario?

The problem is that the Portuguese wouldn't accept that, if the King had refused to return to Portugal and stayed in Brasil, instead of the Porto Rebellion being about imposing a Constitution on the Monarchy it could had easily ended up with either replacing the Monarch for another, or just declare a Republic.

Now the question becomes with whom does GB sides with and who manages to achieve the greater support inside the Portuguese navy, because whoever controls the navy controls the colonies.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
I wasn't referring to just prejudice, but also interests, Nicolau is still a good example as he considered a national hero while being ignored for promotion at the same time, because the European officers were usually favoured over those born in the colonies, the nobility and the clergy will never accept to share the power, unless they are forced to do it, look at the Porto Rebellion, the Liberal wanted to end absolutism and impose a Constitution on the Monarchy, a Constitution that was considered very innovative for it's time, but not even they, which one would assume would be more willing to compromise with Brasil, were willing to accept the post-Napoleonic reality, that Brasil was no longer a colony.

Best it would happen, as I said before here, would be a nominal subservience of Brasil, a Dominion relationship is you wish to call it that, that there wouldn't be one parliament for the two Kingdom, there would be one for Portugal and another for Brasil, and after the 1860's, when Brasil's population is double that of Portugal, this would be even more nominal than before.

Indeed, the Canadian situation could only really work because Canadians had a rather small population compared to Britain.

I fall into the camp that states that you could only ever delay the issue until the tail begins to wag the dog so to speak.
 
I wasn't referring to just prejudice, but also interests, Nicolau is still a good example as he considered a national hero while being ignored for promotion at the same time, because the European officers were usually favoured over those born in the colonies, the nobility and the clergy will never accept to share the power, unless they are forced to do it, look at the Porto Rebellion, the Liberal wanted to end absolutism and impose a Constitution on the Monarchy, a Constitution that was considered very innovative for it's time, but not even they, which one would assume would be more willing to compromise with Brasil, were willing to accept the post-Napoleonic reality, that Brasil was no longer a colony.

You need to put that into context. Portugal was under an unreasonable national fervor after fighting the French for independence only to face British military occupation with very little support from their absent ruler, who's on the other side of the ocean. Recolonization of Brazil is obviously a matter of national pride by then. Joao greatly mismanaged the whole situation, if Pedro accepted to go to Portugal he would eventually find support and create some balance between factions to maintain the constitution for a while until Brazil finds its path as a Dominion.

EDIT: Also this "Dominion status" will not be sustainable in a long term, there will eventually be a republican revolution or a more peaceful break, like Norwegian independence from Sweden. Or, with some luck, Brazil can stabilize, industrialize and increase population faster to a point that it'd be easy to keep Portugal under its wing.
 
Last edited:
You need to put that into context. Portugal was under an unreasonable national fervor after fighting the French for independence only to face British military occupation with very little support from their absent ruler, who's on the other side of the ocean. Recolonization of Brazil is obviously a matter of national pride by then. Joao greatly mismanaged the whole situation, if Pedro accepted to go to Portugal he would eventually find support and create some balance between factions to maintain the constitution for a while until Brazil finds its path as a Dominion.

And considering the context of having a King that had was very bad at reading the situation and a hot head has heir to the throne, those two will need a miracle to keep some sort of balance between the two factions, the Portuguese will demand the navy to return to Lisbon, because controlling the navy is the key to controlling the Empire, and then the Brazilian faction will probably demand for them to create a navy of their own, after all they are a Kingdom, even if under another Kingdom, and as such they will expect to have their own armed forces, and Portuguese faction will consider that a obvious attack to their control of the African colonies and you will have thousands of this arguments and this is without going into the slavery question, now that they are considered part of the metropolis does Portuguese Law applies or does the old Colonial Law applies? And then you end up with two parliaments, separated by an ocean, and one King trying balance this for as long as possible and if for some miracle they managed to keep this up until the 1860's then Brasil's demographic advantage will be obvious and they will not accept to keep second place.

The post-French Invasions period is too late to try and save this mess.

That's why I said before that the only ways to extend Portuguese control of Brasil, implies no French Invasions and no Consolidation of the Brazilian states into one, you avoid the Nationalist fervor of the post-French Invasions period and with 5 States in South America instead of 1, Portugal is able to keep it's population advantage against the individual States for longer than 1860's and during all this period you have the possibility to create Dominion-relations with the several states.
 
Well, it worked (for a while) for Hungary. Certainly, Budapest and Vienna are closer than Lisbon and Rio, but at least we speak the same language and think of ourselves as a single nation.
 
Well, it worked (for a while) for Hungary. Certainly, Budapest and Vienna are closer than Lisbon and Rio, but at least we speak the same language and think of ourselves as a single nation.

In the end you still have the distance problem and, more importantly, the population diference. OTL in AH in 1911 you had 12M Germans and 10M Hungarians, the Germans had a demographic advantage over the Hungarians and the two had a demographic advantage over the remaining peoples of AH, by 1850 Brasil already had 7M while Portugal only had 3.5.

If Brasil is kept carved up between several states then yeah it's possible to keep this mess intact for maybe, with lots of luck, until the 20th century, keep Brasil in one state and by 1820 Brasil already has the population advantage.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Hi, what I find interesting is that all answers and discussions seem to stem from making changes to the relationship between Portugal and Brazil after Napoleonic Wars when the court had already transferred to Brazil and Portugal had already been ravaged by war. I make the case that the best and probably only way for the Portugal and Brazil to be united is for the reforms instituted by Pombal not to be destroyed by Maria I and her cronies. We can make the argument that Pombal's reforms had allowed for a change in the relationship between Lisbon and Brazil and that industry had started to flourish in Brazil under his rule. When Maria came to power the old powers in Lisbon rushed to close all industry in Brazil and to return Brazil to a colony under Lisbon control instead of as a partner in the empire. Those familiar with my work (see signature for those not aware) know that I have interpreted and expanded Pombal influence. But even iOTL there was a lot of work and progress started under Pombal that if it had been nourished could of united both parts of the empire and made it a true federation. That is what you are asking is how could Portugal and Brazil stayed united as a Federation.
 
You are assuming that the Portuguese nobility would ever accept people from to colonies to go to the parliament, the Continental Portuguese discriminated against those born in the colonies just look to what happened to Vicente Nicolau de Mesquita, the Brazilians would never receive representation on the parliament, unless you use a early 18th century POD and even then it would create extra problems.

Ex: Portugal abolished slavery on the Metropolis in the 18th century, Brasil was a colony so wasn't affected, but if it already considered part of the Metropolis, which is the only way to have them represented on a possible parliament, then this would affect them, now imagine what the reaction of the Brazilian gentry.

At best Portugal manages to keep direct control until the 1850's, if they keep all the states divided, from there on Brasil would just be too populous to allow Portugal to control them directly.

What?!! From where did you take this? You can’t simply invent stories out of nowehere. The nobility was never a problem in 1822. The Cortes (the Constitutional Assemby) was mostly filled with non-nobles. In fact, since his arrival in 1808, João VI had ennobled hundreds of Brazilians. It’s hard to discuss something with someone who doesn’t rely on facts.
 
What?!! From where did you take this? You can’t simply invent stories out of nowehere. The nobility was never a problem in 1822. The Cortes (the Constitutional Assemby) was mostly filled with non-nobles. In fact, since his arrival in 1808, João VI had ennobled hundreds of Brazilians. It’s hard to discuss something with someone who doesn’t rely on facts.

I took that from the legislation passed by the secretary of war and foreign affairs that made it impossible for non-nobles to have access to the post of officer in the Portuguese army during the first years of the 19th century, and I took that from the Council of Regency that was in Power during the period in which the Prince-Regent was in Brasil, among others.

If you go see the context I mention about Brazilian being sent to a Portuguese Parliament, now the parliament was divided into two Chambers, Chamber of Deputies and Peers, now do do you actually thing that the Absolutist nobility would ever agree to accept Brazilian nobles on the Chambers of Peers? These are the same men that didn't accepted the 1822 Constitution, the "not a problem" as you mention it ended up with the Vilafrancada, that ended with the suspension of the constitution in 1823 and with the 1822 one being replaced by the 1826 Constitution Letter by King Peter IV, I of Brasil, that was more absolutist than the 1822 one but that even then wasn't considered enough for the Absolutists, or Miguelistas if favour this term.

Now I already said this multiple times, a joint Parliament will never work in the post-Napoleon framework, at best the Liberals in 1822 say that instead of one Parliament you get two, one for each Kingdom, but then the same problem with the 1823 attempted coup stays and you still end with the constitution being suspended.

Now I can't really answer to that one about ennobling hundreds of Brazilian, and unlike what you think and say I do rely on facts, so I just download the "Arquivo Nobiliarquico Brasileiro" and I'm still in page 57 and just found 3 people ennobled, 2 Portuguese gaining titles in Brasil and 1 Brazilian, before 1808, all were created in 1807, and thus far the rest as all port-independence, so I will address that one later. EDIT: found a grand total of 12 people during that period receiving titles of nobility, 5 born in Portugal and 7 in Brasil, and I'm counting 4 that were created in 1807, one from 1801 and another from 1800.
 
Last edited:
You're all wrong here. You're jumping from the conclusion that Brazil's independence was inevitable, which wasn't. The Brazilian gentry was content having representation in the Portuguese parliament. Things went downhill when the Portuguese tried to diminish Brazil's rights. Had they been smarter, you'd have a very powerful Portuguese–Brazilian empire, perhaps even taking chunks of the former Spanish colonial empire in South America.

I do think it was inevitable, but not necessarily in that century. They could have stayed united even to the XX century, but at some point Portugal and Brazil would want to split up, perhaps with Portugal being the one to want to leave. It's hard to imagine 10 million Portuguese being OK with domination by 200 million Brazilians.
 
In the end you still have the distance problem and, more importantly, the population diference. OTL in AH in 1911 you had 12M Germans and 10M Hungarians, the Germans had a demographic advantage over the Hungarians and the two had a demographic advantage over the remaining peoples of AH, by 1850 Brasil already had 7M while Portugal only had 3.5.

If Brasil is kept carved up between several states then yeah it's possible to keep this mess intact for maybe, with lots of luck, until the 20th century, keep Brasil in one state and by 1820 Brasil already has the population advantage.

By 1822 Brazil and Portugal have about the same population, the same can be said about Austria and Hungary in 1867.
 
If you go see the context I mention about Brazilian being sent to a Portuguese Parliament, now the parliament was divided into two Chambers, Chamber of Deputies and Peers, now do do you actually thing that the Absolutist nobility would ever agree to accept Brazilian nobles on the Chambers of Peers? These are the same men that didn't accepted the 1822 Constitution, the "not a problem" as you mention it ended up with the Vilafrancada, that ended with the suspension of the constitution in 1823 and with the 1822 one being replaced by the 1826 Constitution Letter by King Peter IV, I of Brasil, that was more absolutist than the 1822 one but that even then wasn't considered enough for the Absolutists, or Miguelistas if favour this term.

In the 1822 Constitution the legislature was unicameral, like in its model, the Cadiz Constitution. There was no such a thing as a Chamber of Peers.

Now I can't really answer to that one about ennobling hundreds of Brazilian, and unlike what you think and say I do rely on facts, so I just download the "Arquivo Nobiliarquico Brasileiro" and I'm still in page 57 and just found 3 people ennobled, 2 Portuguese gaining titles in Brasil and 1 Brazilian, before 1808, all were created in 1807, and thus far the rest as all port-independence, so I will address that one later. EDIT: found a grand total of 12 people during that period receiving titles of nobility, 5 born in Portugal and 7 in Brasil, and I'm counting 4 that were created in 1807, one from 1801 and another from 1800.

He does have a point here. It's a quite well documented fact.

D. João VI concedeu, entre 1808 e 1821, 119 títulos;

That's often mentioned in Brazil as a funny anedocte; the impoverished court wasn't able to actually pay with actual money for their luxuries in this new land, so they'd instead give honors and titles to locals...
 
Last edited:
In the 1822 Constitution the legislature was unicameral, like in its model, the Cadiz Constitution. There was no such a thing as a Chamber of Peers.

You are right I was reading the Constitution Letter, and I apologize for my mistake.

He does have a point here. It's a quite well documented fact.



That's often mentioned in Brazil as a funny anedocte; the impoverished court wasn't able to actually pay with actual money for their luxuries in this new land, so they'd instead give honors and titles to locals...

The arquivo only mentions really 12, that I could find, what you see are many titles after the Ipitanga, 1 of December 1822 was one of the years in which more titles were given.

By 1822 Brazil and Portugal have about the same population, the same can be said about Austria and Hungary in 1867.

The INE on a 2001 paper estimates the Portuguese population in 1801 at 2 931 930 while the IBGE gives Brasil a population of 3.250.000-3.660.000 for 1800, this last estimates I wouldn't put much faith on them as the IBGE places the 1808 population at 2.424.463-4.051.000 and the 1815 pop at 2.860.525-4.427.000 so I'm going to assume a small population advantage to Portugal at the dawn of the French invasions, now using the same two institutes you have for 1811 2 876 602 and for 1838 3 200 000, no data for 1820 but I think it's safe to assume that it would be on the 2.9M, now the IBGE gives for Brasil in 1820 4.717.000 and for 1823 3.960.866-4.899.000, the lowest population estimate they have afterwards is 3.758.000 for 1827 and even that one is 3.758.000-5.154.000, so by 1820 Brasil already has the population advantage.
 
Last edited:
The arquivo only mentions really 12, that I could find, what you see are many titles after the Ipitanga, 1 of December 1822 was one of the years in which more titles were given.

Here's a link to a Master's dissertation from the University of Sao Paulo about the theme. See Chapter 1.

The INE on a 2001 paper estimates the Portuguese population in 1801 at 2 931 930 while the IBGE gives Brasil a population of 3.250.000-3.660.000 for 1800, this last estimates I wouldn't put much faith on them as the IBGE places the 1808 population at 2.424.463-4.051.000 and the 1815 pop at 2.860.525-4.427.000 so I'm going to assume a small population advantage to Portugal at the dawn of the French invasions, now using the same two institutes you have for 1811 2 876 602 and for 1838 3 200 000, no data for 1820 but I think it's safe to assume that it would be on the 2.9M, now the IBGE gives for Brasil in 1820 4.717.000 and for 1823 3.960.866-4.899.000, the lowest population estimate they have afterwards is 3.758.000 for 1827 and even that one is 3.758.000-5.154.000, so by 1820 Brasil already has the population advantage.

You have to take estimates with a grain of salt. If there was a difference, it was very slight (at least from a political standpoint). Same is true for Austria and Hungary in 1867.

By 1822 Brazil and Portugal have about the same population, the same can be said about Austria and Hungary in 1867.
 
Here's a link to a Master's dissertation from the University of Sao Paulo about the theme. See Chapter 1.

Interesting paper, thanks for sharing.

Now Chapter 1 mentions 145 titles for 120 people, with the first Brazilian to get a title being Ana Francisca Maciel da Costa, in 1812, it also says that the nobility titles were, in it's majority, given to Portuguese living on both sides of the Ocean and it also says that "Keeping the Empire united and not irritating the old nobility were the concerns of D.João during his stay in America, until 21st of April 1821.

Now when I mentioned the number I found in the archive, and there's no doubt I probably overlooked some, I wasn't referring to the number of people to whom he gave titles to, but to the number of Brazilians that received them, the archive only mentions Brazilian Nobility, and that was what I thought we were talking about.

You have to take estimates with a grain of salt. If there was a difference, it was very slight (at least from a political standpoint). Same is true for Austria and Hungary in 1867.

I took them with much salt, but the ICE mentions a demographic contraction during the early XIX century, cause by the French Invasions and the Peninsular War, now between the 1801 and 1811 Census the population numbers went down to 2 876 602, while the lowest estimate of Brasil's population places it at 2 860 525, basically the same population in, now the Censo do Liberalismo of 1833 places the Portuguese population at 3 200 000 people, while the lowest estimate of Brasil's population for 1834 places it at 3 800 000, assuming that both numbers are real you can keep it up until this period, if you go with a AH solution of two countries, one king and that was what I said would work, for a while and only if the Absolutists decided not to screw everything, on the post-Napoleonic framework, but after's the 30's it would be very obvious on who would be the main player of the "United Kingdom of Portugal and Brasil" the question would be if the Portuguese elites would accept second place.
 
Now Chapter 1 mentions 145 titles for 120 people, with the first Brazilian to get a title being Ana Francisca Maciel da Costa, in 1812, it also says that the nobility titles were, in it's majority, given to Portuguese living on both sides of the Ocean and it also says that "Keeping the Empire united and not irritating the old nobility were the concerns of D.João during his stay in America, until 21st of April 1821.

That's kinda anachronistic. There's no Criollo vs. Peninsular divide in the Portuguese Empire - well, not in the same crucial way that we think the Spanish Empire, that divide was pretty much "created" by the Bourbon kings. If a Portuguese-born person is long established in Brazil, he's therefore considered Brazilian (as some who represents his own interests, Brazilian interests). Numerous Portuguese-born nobles stayed in Brazil after independence and, as I said, even a Portuguese queen and a Portuguese president were Brazilian-born.

I took them with much salt, but the ICE mentions a demographic contraction during the early XIX century, cause by the French Invasions and the Peninsular War, now between the 1801 and 1811 Census the population numbers went down to 2 876 602, while the lowest estimate of Brasil's population places it at 2 860 525, basically the same population in, now the Censo do Liberalismo of 1833 places the Portuguese population at 3 200 000 people, while the lowest estimate of Brasil's population for 1834 places it at 3 800 000, assuming that both numbers are real you can keep it up until this period, if you go with a AH solution of two countries, one king and that was what I said would work, for a while and only if the Absolutists decided not to screw everything, on the post-Napoleonic framework, but after's the 30's it would be very obvious on who would be the main player of the "United Kingdom of Portugal and Brasil" the question would be if the Portuguese elites would accept second place.

I think you're overestimating the Absolutist influence. Their leader was in Royal Family, that's Ottoman-level type of intrigue. If we simpy get rid of D. Miguel and Carlota the revoltist would simply have no one to support. As I said, with some luck, the 1822 Constitution stands for a decade or two until Brazil and Portugal reach a agreement, a "Luso-Brazilian Ausgleich" with separate parliaments; for obvious geographic reasons, they won't share a Navy or an Army, but a single Foreign Office. They'd be virtually independent under a Personal Union and, if the King doesn't go crazy, this agreement can last for most of the 19th century. I see the following consequences:
  • Economically, both nations have very little to offer to each other, so their relations would be pretty much like OTL (Portuguese would still emigrate en masse to Brazil and Brazilian leaders would still be educated in Portugal);
  • Portugal would be more careful with its African possessions and avoid slave trade (like OTL) and possibly the king could push for an earlier end of international slave trade to Brazil and eventually grow to be a more important influence the abolitionist cause (but with caution);
  • The diplomatic prestige of Portugal might give Brazil the opportunity to bully even further the Platine nations without a word from the international community (the UK), keeping the Cisplatina/Uruguay, what would not only greatly increase the amount of fertile temperate land in Brazil, but also make the access to Central Brazil much easier;
  • Brazilians, more adapted to a tropical climate, could settle Portuguese Africa quicker. IIRC one of the first Portuguese surveyors of Central Africa was Brazilian. Eventually, with a greater population in Africa, Portugal could at least get a chunk of the Pink Map.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
One other point may be that the Great Powers of the time - most notably Britain - benefitted from Latin American independence as a way of opening up new markets. As long as the dominant naval power sees its interest as being on Brazil's side, it's difficult to see how independence can be avoided.
.

Britain favored the division of the Spanish empire, but with Portugal being a dependent ally, I do not think they had a particular interest in seeing Portugal and Brazil divided.
 
Top