What're ways Portugal could've kept Brazil?

Hello, I firstly apologise if this is the wrong place for the question. Im not familiar yet here. And 2ndly, hello.

I for the meantime have had a curiosity on the Portuguese Kingdom and its possession, Brazil. I always wanted to know, what would've been ways that Portugal could've kept Brazil as simply and oversea portuguese region of the Kingdom? I've read that It would be bad but how?. Would it have been difficult for Portugal to remain the head of the Kingdom? I've also read people saying that in order for it to work, it would need to be an Absolute Monarchy or Authoritarian like to remain the only capital of the Portuguese Kingdom?.

And if we fast forward now, is it also acceptable to ask what consequences does this leave for Europe/Portugal and most importantly, America since Brazil is in the same continent.


Sorry if this in the wrong place, simply link me to the right place! thanks for your time! I am interested to see responses!

Peace.
 
The problem is that at some point Brazil will overtake Portugal population-wise, either Portugal will break with Brazil or embrace more and more authoritarian policies to remain on top.
 
If you avoid the French Invasions, then the Court doesn't goes to Brasil butterflying away much of the development that Brasil got during that OTL period, but that, at beast, only gains Portugal until the 30's or 40's, because that basically would mean that Portugal would keep considering Brasil as just a money cow to be squeezed of all it's resources, but then even if Brasil eventually declares independence it won't be so hurtful for Portugal as there would be no reason for most of the Navy to be there so we get to keep our navy mostly intact which would be important.

A probably good POD would be to avoid the consolidation of all the States of Brasil into one, if you keep the several states divided that means that Portugal could keep the population edge against the individual states and more importantly you could play the states against each other but this would probably wouldn't be practical in the long term and consolidation would happen, and then, at best, Portugal declares Brasil a Kingdom under the Portuguese Crown and sends a Viceroy to "rule" while in reality the Brazilians rule themselves at worst they declare independence and tell Portugal to screw itself.
 
I agree with the above post, that a useful way is somehow to avoid the Brazilian states consolidating, and also to prevent the Monarchy from moving to Rio - otherwise the only way of keeping Brazil and Portugal together may be for Brazil gradually to become the more dominant of the two in the relationship - and then the danger is that Portugal goes independent.

One other point may be that the Great Powers of the time - most notably Britain - benefitted from Latin American independence as a way of opening up new markets. As long as the dominant naval power sees its interest as being on Brazil's side, it's difficult to see how independence can be avoided.

As with Spanish America the Napoleonic wars are the big problem - if they can somehow be avoided, one could conceivably see a timeline in which either Spain, Portugal or both may be lucky enough to end up with a relationship maybe developing as Canada's did with the UK - but they need to remain on the good side of (initially) Britain and (very quickly) the USA.
 
You're all wrong here. You're jumping from the conclusion that Brazil's independence was inevitable, which wasn't. The Brazilian gentry was content having representation in the Portuguese parliament. Things went downhill when the Portuguese tried to diminish Brazil's rights. Had they been smarter, you'd have a very powerful Portuguese–Brazilian empire, perhaps even taking chunks of the former Spanish colonial empire in South America.
 
I go farther: can you only imagine the powerhouse this Portuguese–Brazilian empire would be, with territories across the globe and a foothold in Europe, having Pedro II (or Pedro V as he would have been known) as king/emperor? If he was so successful with Brazil, who had just come out of major rebellions, I can only dream of the possibilities had he inherited an already stable realm. Not just that: no Brazilian independence, there is no civil was between Pedro I (IV) and his brother Miguel. This is an interesting "what if" scenario: Pedro I ruling from Portugal and his son Pedro II as regent in Brazil?!!
 
You're all wrong here. You're jumping from the conclusion that Brazil's independence was inevitable, which wasn't. The Brazilian gentry was content having representation in the Portuguese parliament. Things went downhill when the Portuguese tried to diminish Brazil's rights. Had they been smarter, you'd have a very powerful Portuguese–Brazilian empire, perhaps even taking chunks of the former Spanish colonial empire in South America.

This, what people usually forget is that Brazil was already a United Kingdom with Portugal, the crisis that led to the brazilian independence happened after the portuguese parliament tried to push Brazil back to be a colony. If you avoid this the Union can last a lot longer, but not until modern day, maybe not even to the late 19th century, because as it was said, Brazil would eventually replace Portugal as the leading member of the Union and it would break it
 
Make a new title, perhaps. Something involving Lusitanian. The full title for the monarch will include King of Portugal, Rio Grande, Algarves, Grao Para, etc. Might be that if there are some states in the interior that they are given certain titles or autonomy, pointing to the Brazanga monarch as being like an emperor. We need to consider the issue of slaves and the relation to African states who sold slaves to the Portuguese. Need to find a way to transition the empire into Lusotropicalism, where the emperor has kings in Africa paying tribute (in the form of fealty instead of money, etc) to him. I
 
This, what people usually forget is that Brazil was already a United Kingdom with Portugal, the crisis that led to the brazilian independence happened after the portuguese parliament tried to push Brazil back to be a colony. If you avoid this the Union can last a lot longer, but not until modern day, maybe not even to the late 19th century, because as it was said, Brazil would eventually replace Portugal as the leading member of the Union and it would break it
Indeed, with the Portuguese not wanting to end up as the colony. Issue is how to both make Brazil less unified and yet not likely to break into pieces.
 
This, what people usually forget is that Brazil was already a United Kingdom with Portugal, the crisis that led to the brazilian independence happened after the portuguese parliament tried to push Brazil back to be a colony. If you avoid this the Union can last a lot longer, but not until modern day, maybe not even to the late 19th century, because as it was said, Brazil would eventually replace Portugal as the leading member of the Union and it would break it

Brazil had already taken Portugal's position by 1815. In 1822, their population was the same size.
 
You're all wrong here. You're jumping from the conclusion that Brazil's independence was inevitable, which wasn't. The Brazilian gentry was content having representation in the Portuguese parliament. Things went downhill when the Portuguese tried to diminish Brazil's rights. Had they been smarter, you'd have a very powerful Portuguese–Brazilian empire, perhaps even taking chunks of the former Spanish colonial empire in South America.

You are assuming that the Portuguese nobility would ever accept people from to colonies to go to the parliament, the Continental Portuguese discriminated against those born in the colonies just look to what happened to Vicente Nicolau de Mesquita, the Brazilians would never receive representation on the parliament, unless you use a early 18th century POD and even then it would create extra problems.

Ex: Portugal abolished slavery on the Metropolis in the 18th century, Brasil was a colony so wasn't affected, but if it already considered part of the Metropolis, which is the only way to have them represented on a possible parliament, then this would affect them, now imagine what the reaction of the Brazilian gentry.

At best Portugal manages to keep direct control until the 1850's, if they keep all the states divided, from there on Brasil would just be too populous to allow Portugal to control them directly.
 
As has been said, the only way to do it would be keeping the United Kingdom functional. I'd go farther than that and say that João VI should refuse to go back to Portugal after the Porto Revolution, but agree to a Constitution. The timer starts ticking as soon as he's back at Lisbon. It's easier to hold Portugal and the African colonies from Brazil than vice-versa.
 
Last edited:
As has been said, the only way to do it would be keeping the United Kingdom functional. I'd go farther than that and say that João VI should refuse to go back to Portugal after the Porto Revolution, but agree to a Constitution. The timmer starks ticking as soon as he's back at Lisbon. It's easier to hold Portugal and the African colonies from Brazil than vice-versa.

If he did that then the Porto Revolution would stop being about creating a Constitutional Monarchy to become about creating a Republic, an idea that had already been toyed with in 1640. 19th century is too late for a functional United Kingdom of Portugal and Brasil.
 
The problem is that at some point Brazil will overtake Portugal population-wise, either Portugal will break with Brazil or embrace more and more authoritarian policies to remain on top.

So? Neither are democracies at the point of independence.
 
If he did that then the Porto Revolution would stop being about creating a Constitutional Monarchy to become about creating a Republic, an idea that had already been toyed with in 1640. 19th century is too late for a functional United Kingdom of Portugal and Brasil.
Would any European great power and Spain allow that to happen, though?
 
By 1808 Brazil was already the clear economic center of the Portuguese empire:
  • All African colonies were de facto Brazilian colonies as slave trade was virtually their only economic activity.
  • The British were already looking for an excuse to occupy the Atlantic Islands, as they did occupy Madeira during the Napoleonic Wars. They continued trying later, but it was more cost-effective just to maintain the integrity of a friendly and deeply dependent nation.
  • by the 18th century it was already pretty clear that Mainland Portugal was indefensible in the case of an eventual foreign invasion. Only fate (or lack of political will) could explain why Portugal wasn't completely occupied by the Spanish during the Seven Years War. To illustrate it better, in the Peninsula this war is commonly known as the "Fantastic War".
  • Portuguese court was deeply dependent on the commerce with the American colony, but, unlike the British, it lacked the capacity to supply all the internal demand. The Portuguese Court served as a mere middleman between the colony and the UK.
Joao could've gone to the closer islands, like the Azores, or even to Britain, as the Dutch Stadtholder did, but he didn't. He choose to leave Europe. The transfer of the court was an old and good geopolitical plan for such a small nation as Portugal.

To be honest, Dom Joao is praised in Brazil as one of the main figures behind Brazilian unity, but, IMHO he was an incompetent ruler. His wife and both of his sons never really listened to him, and even antagonize him politically during his entire reign. This inability to control his own family was crucial to Brazil and Portugal for the decades to come, as the Brazilian Regency Period and Portuguese Civil War are direct consequences of that.

IDK, I think that a more competent ruler could make the 1822 Constitution of the United Kingdom stand for a decade or two and, with some luck, make it evolve into something between Austria-Hungary and a British Dominion. It seems reasonable to me.
 
You are assuming that the Portuguese nobility would ever accept people from to colonies to go to the parliament, the Continental Portuguese discriminated against those born in the colonies just look to what happened to Vicente Nicolau de Mesquita, the Brazilians would never receive representation on the parliament, unless you use a early 18th century POD and even then it would create extra problems.

This isn't a question of mere prejudice, the question here is the representation of a vast population with very different political interests. The greatest Portuguese diplomat, Alexandre de Gusmão, was Brazilian. Heck, Portugal even had a Brazilian-born queen and a Brazilian-born president!
 
Is there anyway for a reverse “keeping” if you will?

Such as, could Brazil be the new center of the kingdom and be the center of domination and have hegemony over Portugal in a certain scenario?
 
Top