Whatifalthist's "What if Ataturk never existed?"

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Is WIAH credible?
I watched some old videos of him, more for entertainment and interesting PODs. Some political videos of him are interesting. But from time for now, he just became an anti left/ communist.

Not saying that communism is good, but it became its focus nowadays.

He's as credible as Infowars and Smoloko.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Though Ataturk does lend credence to the Great man theory of history, it isn't as if he emerged from a vacuum. If he didn't exist at all or died during WWI there were others who could take his place.

This isn't to say that everything would be exactly the same, a more religious Turkish Republic for example could have secured Kurdistan for example. However one man's death doesn't automatically lead to the Turks accepting Sevres partitioning their country.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Though Ataturk does lend credence to the Great man theory of history, it isn't as if he emerged from a vacuum. If he didn't exist at all or died during WWI there were others who could take his place.

This isn't to say that everything would be exactly the same, a more religious Turkish Republic for example could have secured Kurdistan for example. However one man's death doesn't automatically lead to the Turks accepting Sevres partitioning their country.

He was very important at Gallipoli though and without him I can see Constantinople fall which changes A LOT of things.

 

[Fearless Leader]

He was very important at Gallipoli though and without him I can see Constantinople fall which changes A LOT of things.

Completely disagree. There's little Ataturk did at Gallipoli that another reasonably competent officer wouldn't have. Even if the Entente is slightly more successful, it's a long way from Gallipoli to Istanbul...

 

[Sarthak]

I think the Allies would have won at Gallipoli, making many butterflies.

Ataturk was one of many Ottoman Generals in Gallipoli. He was just the one with the most publicity. Faik Pasha, Wehib Pasha, Mehmed Essad Pasha, Fevzi Pasha, Cevat Pasha, Halil Sami Bey, and Yakub Shevki Pasha were all very talented commanders who also defeated all the other allied offensives into Gallipoli. Memed Essad in particular was ruthless in his defeat in detail of the ANZAC and Franco-British corps and Mehmed Essad's corps were responsible for around ~1/3 of the entire allied fighting casualties. Ataturk or no Ataturk, if the allies attack gallipoli with the same forces, same mentality, same goals and same logistics, then they were going to be repulsed.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

Completely disagree. There's little Ataturk did at Gallipoli that another reasonably competent officer wouldn't have. Even if the Entente is slightly more successful, it's a long way from Gallipoli to Istanbul...

Ataturk was one of many Ottoman Generals in Gallipoli. He was just the one with the most publicity. Faik Pasha, Wehib Pasha, Mehmed Essad Pasha, Fevzi Pasha, Cevat Pasha, Halil Sami Bey, and Yakub Shevki Pasha were all very talented commanders who also defeated all the other allied offensives into Gallipoli. Memed Essad in particular was ruthless in his defeat in detail of the ANZAC and Franco-British corps and Mehmed Essad's corps were responsible for around ~1/3 of the entire allied fighting casualties. Ataturk or no Ataturk, if the allies attack gallipoli with the same forces, same mentality, same goals and same logistics, then they were going to be repulsed.

Another user pointed out that it's possible the Turks still win the independence war, the post war situation of Turkey would probably be different, it might have become more religious, fundamentalist like current day Iran, fascist, ect, ect.

 

[Augenis]

Than, this is where the video turns into a crazy mishmash. He claims that if the Turks lost the war of independence, Mussolini would not have risen to power because Italy would own parts of Turkey and the Italians would not feel betrayed. I agree with that.

I don't. Italy retained the territorial claims from the Ottoman Empire in OTL - the Dodecanese. The rest, a sphere of influence in southern Anatolia, was abandoned by the Italians without a fight, and was really only relevant for them as a buffer to prevent Greece from going too far. By the time Sevres was signed, Mussolini was already on the upsurge, nobody was going to care when Italy's main focus was not on Middle Eastern claims but on the Adriatic coast.

And frankly the idea that you can stop the rise of fascism by just giving irredentists what they want is ridiculous, irredentism is an excuse. It's the same line of thought that gets so many AH makers to draw """better Versailles""" maps that leave Germany literally larger than 1914 because duh the Nazis would never rise to power!! (no, giving Germany Austria would not prevent the Nazis.)

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

I don't. Italy retained the territorial claims from the Ottoman Empire in OTL - the Dodecanese. The rest, a sphere of influence in southern Anatolia, was abandoned by the Italians without a fight, and was really only relevant for them as a buffer to prevent Greece from going too far. By the time Sevres was signed, Mussolini was already on the upsurge, nobody was going to care when Italy's main focus was not on Middle Eastern claims but on the Adriatic coast.

And frankly the idea that you can stop the rise of fascism by just giving irredentists what they want is ridiculous, irredentism is an excuse. It's the same line of thought that gets so many AH makers to draw """better Versailles""" maps that leave Germany literally larger than 1914 because duh the Nazis would never rise to power!! (no, giving Germany Austria would not prevent the Nazis.)

Well, Italy was a signatory of the Treaty of Sèvres but things started to fall apart when Italy support the Turkish nationalists openly and even then Italy still supported the Allies on numerous occasions such as the Chanak crisis and even with the Treaty of Lausanne Italy still got zones of economic influence in Turkey. If the Allied are winning the Turkish war of independence in the first place Italy would probably have taken actions that are different than OTL. Even if Mussolini still rises to power and with his ambitions in the Adriatic sea, tensions with an openly hostile Turkey would found Italy siding with Britain and France in a defensive war, there was the Stresa Pact OTL. It very much could be the case of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", Britain and France were the same nations that allied themselves with the USSR in World War 2.