What would you do differently at Versailles in 1919?

I always blamed the Serbs primarily, they were the ones that started the whole mess with the assassination of the archduke. Did they really think that the Austrian-Hungarian Empire would take that lying down?

The people in question thought the war was coming anyway, and that the only chance to stop or delay the war was the assassination of the archduke.

Not that Austria-Hungary had much right to complain, seeing as the plot was started by its own subjects...and seeing as Austria-Hungary engaged in even worse acts of subversion against at least 3 of its neighboring countries.
 
So OTL wasn't?

I think it's very simple:

- Either you solve the problems that led to WWI and achieve a durable peace
- Or you humiliate Germany and risk round two
- Or you completely destroy Germany and achieve a brutal peace.

Solution 1 should have been chosen. Instead, solution 2 was implemented. And people like Foch advocated for solution number 3.
Versailles was written as sufficient for option 3 but no one cared to enforce it so it became option 2.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
So OTL wasn't?

I think it's very simple:

- Either you solve the problems that led to WWI and achieve a durable peace
- Or you humiliate Germany and risk round two
- Or you completely destroy Germany and achieve a brutal peace.

Solution 1 should have been chosen. Instead, solution 2 was implemented. And people like Foch advocated for solution number 3.
Solution 3 would have required restarting the war. Allies would win, but it would be massively unpopular at the home front. And solution 1 is impossible, there is no way to satisfy France, Belgium, and the Eastern countries without pissing of Germany.

France: We want Alsace-Lorraine back
Germany: Alsace is German! The people there are Germans
Poland: We want Wielkopolska, Upper Silesia, and access to the Baltic
Germany: Never! That is integral German territory. (Ignore the fact that we stole it from you around 150 years ago.)
 
Huh? You could chop Germany in half and it still would've remained powerful, as evidenced by the BRD.
What I mean is that if the allies had of enforced Versailles Germany would not have been a threat ever.

They became one in 1939 because they had outspent the allies on capital military purchases for a number of years and the allies carried the stupid ball in the years 1935-1940.
 
Look at the treaties USA imposed on Japan (same model - i know that was 1945 not 1914 -- but that type of thinking)
1. Help write an effective constitution for Germany
2. Keep Germany whole (part of issue here is that Germany 'together" is so much stronger then the rest of Europe)
3. An early Nato as a org to keep the peace (kind of like what Metternich did after the Nap wars - or the Three emperors alliance) with goals of controlling communism and dangerous dictatorships or hot spots.
4. Create a major euro zone for cooperative trade to gain co dependence -
5. Look at German monarchy possibilities and "pick" a rational choice for British type monarchy so that there is friendly support
6. Breaking up Germany just allows a future war with Russia more likely
Number 1. The fact that Germany was not occupied and England and France would never come near to listening to the US that is a nonstarter. Plus the US wanted out of the mess.
Number 2 The US might go for it bit GB and France would never approved.
Number 3 The US would never in OTL go for that they still were some isolationists and the public would go crazy doing that.
Number 4 Some might be for the a EU BUT these people just fought a war that devastated most countries and you have "GB and France IMHO: pissed off because they realized their not a Super Power any more
Number 5. This one might work Off the top of my head but I thoughtful GB and Germany were very close.
Number 6. I agree it would be a bad choice
 
France: We want Alsace-Lorraine back
Germany: Alsace is German! The people there are Germans
Poland: We want Wielkopolska, Upper Silesia, and access to the Baltic
Germany: Never! That is integral German territory. (Ignore the fact that we stole it from you around 150 years ago.)

And Alsace-Lorraine had been stolen from the HRE 250 years ago.
The best would be to hold referendums in each county* of the disputed territories**. If a county has a population which wants to leave Germany, it will join France, Belgium, Denmark or Poland.
The same should have happened in Luxemburg, in Liechtenstein and in Austria to determine if these countries want to join Germany or to become independent.
Similarly, each county in Austria-Hungary should be given the choice to join Austria (Germany), Bohemia, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia or Slovenia.
Then, each country should have the right to enter a larher state like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia - or to opt out.
Finally, apply the same method to the Russian Empire, especially to determine the eastern border of Poland, and the borders of Ukraine and Finland.

This would be the best method to respect the right to self-determination of the nations.

But that shouldn't be the victory of nationalism. An effective League of Nation has to be created, to peacefully solve conflicts, and some kind of European Economic Organization set up to prevent major economic crises.

*City, district, Kreis, call it what you will.
**Alsace-Lorraine, South Tyrol, Sudetenland, southern Denmark, Eupen-Malmédy, Dalmatia, Upper Silesia, Danzig and Wielkopolska to name only the most notable ones.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
And Alsace-Lorraine had been stolen from the HRE 250 years ago.
The best would be to hold referendums in each county* of the disputed territories**. If a county has a population which wants to leave Germany, it will join France, Belgium, Denmark or Poland.
The same should have happened in Luxemburg, in Liechtenstein and in Austria to determine if these countries want to join Germany or to become independent.
Similarly, each county in Austria-Hungary should be given the choice to join Austria (Germany), Bohemia, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia or Slovenia.
Then, each country should have the right to enter a larher state like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia - or to opt out.
Finally, apply the same method to the Russian Empire, especially to determine the eastern border of Poland, and the borders of Ukraine and Finland.

This would be the best method to respect the right to self-determination of the nations.

But that shouldn't be the victory of nationalism. An effective League of Nation has to be created, to peacefully solve conflicts, and some kind of European Economic Organization set up to prevent major economic crises.

*City, district, Kreis, call it what you will.
**Alsace-Lorraine, South Tyrol, Sudetenland, southern Denmark, Eupen-Malmédy, Dalmatia, Upper Silesia, Danzig and Wielkopolska to name only the most notable ones.
You leave all of Germany's neighbors weak and Germany strong. That's an invitation for Germany to try again. Not to mention that nobody gives a crap about trying to prop up a Ukrainian state that would fail on its own. Not to mention that millions of Belgians and Frenchmen did for absolutely nothing.
 
You leave all of Germany's neighbors weak and Germany strong. That's an invitation for Germany to try again.

"Try again", "try again", "try again" what?
Do you think that the Germans are a tribe of Huns who want to burn and loot the whole world?

Not to mention that nobody gives a crap about trying to prop up a Ukrainian state that would fail on its own.

Again, please give reasons to support your allegations. Why would it fail instantly?

Not to mention that millions of Belgians and Frenchmen did for absolutely nothing.

In OTL, they died for arbitrary annexations. Is this really better than in my scenario, where each region has the right to choose its future state itself?
 
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BigBlueBox

Banned
"Try again", "try again", "try again" what?
Do you think that the Germans are a tribe of Huns who want to burn and loot the whole world?
Prussians always dreamed of dominating Europe. They would have no reason not to try a second time. You are just recreating the situation in 1914, but now Western Europe has less of a will to resist, and Germany has no rivals to the east, and Germany is stronger after taking Austria.

And Ukraine would fail instantly because the Soviets will undermine it from within then gobble it up.
 
Prussians always dreamed of dominating Europe. They would have no reason not to try a second time. You are just recreating the situation in 1914, but now Western Europe has less of a will to resist, and Germany has no rivals to the east, and Germany is stronger after taking Austria.

And Ukraine would fail instantly because the Soviets will undermine it from within then gobble it up.
Citation needed!

I see Entente propaganda is still strong after 100years.

980510127.jpg


You have to give it to the Brits, its quite an impressive work.
 
Prussians always dreamed of dominating Europe.

I hope you know that there is a difference between Prussia and Germany. I hope that, furthermore, you know that at least one third of the Germans supported the SPD in elections, which was a pacifist party opposed to Prussian militarism. Finally, if Austria joins Germany, Prussia will be outmumbered in Parliament and its influence on Germany be reduced.

but now Western Europe has less of a will to resist

And after four years of WWI, Germany will have as little of a will to fight as western Europe. Remember how impopular WWI was in both Germany and France.

Now Hitler could just force his citizens to fight, but the Kaiser needed the approval of the Parliament, democratically elected by all German men. I don't think the Germans would agree to a "round two".

That's why I don't think Germany would try again.

And Ukraine would fail instantly because the Soviets will undermine it from within then gobble it up.

This was true for the German puppet state in Ukraine, but a real Ukraine with the support of the majority of its inhabitants?
 
Poland: We want Wielkopolska, Upper Silesia, and access to the Baltic
Germany: Never! That is integral German territory. (Ignore the fact that we stole it from you around 150 years ago.)

Upper Silesia had been part of the HRE since the High Middle Ages.

And lets not forget the fact that Poland in 1945. was given regions that had been German-populated since before the First Crusade was launched.
 
Make the EU without all the bullshit.
Make it so war in Europe has major economic reprisals.
Germany gives up Prussia and Danzig that is not negotiable.
Germany and Britain become tied at the hip both military and economic.
Britain,France,Italy,Turkey,Spain and Germany sign a co economic treaty with a mutual defence agreements.
Japan and Britain sign economic treaty with a few military contracts
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I hope you know that there is a difference between Prussia and Germany. I hope that, furthermore, you know that at least one third of the Germans supported the SPD in elections, which was a pacifist party opposed to Prussian militarism. Finally, if Austria joins Germany, Prussia will be outmumbered in Parliament and its influence on Germany be reduced.



And after four years of WWI, Germany will have as little of a will to fight as western Europe. Remember how impopular WWI was in both Germany and France.

Now Hitler could just force his citizens to fight, but the Kaiser needed the approval of the Parliament, democratically elected by all German men. I don't think the Germans would agree to a "round two".

That's why I don't think Germany would try again.



This was true for the German puppet state in Ukraine, but a real Ukraine with the support of the majority of its inhabitants?

Of course there is a difference between Prussia and Germany. There is also a difference between the United Kingdom and England. But everyone knows who is the most important member of both of those unions.

You are right about the average German not wanting another war. But even if a country is a democracy, it doesn't matter. It's the elites who get to choose whether or not the country goes to war. They'll always find some good excuse to start a war if they really want too. The only time the will of the people matters is if the war drags on for years. And the thing is, the elites are going to be a lot smarter in round too. They are not going to pick a fight with France. They're going to go after easy, weak targets like Poland and Czech(oslovakia). Attacking them wouldn't even require a draft, and France and Britain won't even bother guaranteeing them because they know it is a lost cause. They could even engineer an alternate Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, where the Soviets attack first and Germany can invade later and claim it is establishing a buffer zone against the Soviets. After taking a nice slice of Eastern Europe, Germany can then use its massive soft power (it would be the largest economy on the continent) to dominate the BeNeLux countries and Denmark, and eventually the rest of the continent. When I said "dominate Europe", I never meant that they would annex the entire continent.

Establishing a Ukrainian state that has broad support among its population would require decisively defeating the Soviets, and then building up a Ukrainian nation and training its army. You would need soldiers there for almost a decade. There is simply no will in Britain and the UK to do that. Remember, after the Poles stopped fighting the Soviets in 1920 the Ukrainian People's Republic collapsed instantly.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Upper Silesia had been part of the HRE since the High Middle Ages.

And lets not forget the fact that Poland in 1945. was given regions that had been German-populated since before the First Crusade was launched.
But we're not talking about 1945. We're talking about 1918. And I think Silesia was in Bohemia. So are you saying the Czechs should get all of Silesia?
 

My mistake, it was only 700 years, not 800.

But we're not talking about 1945. We're talking about 1918.

No, we`re talking about revenge fantasies apparently, which is where all threads on different Versailles inevitably go.

And I think Silesia was in Bohemia. So are you saying the Czechs should get all of Silesia?

That`s a rather silly conclusion to reach from what I wrote.

No, what I`m saying is "you stole it from us 150 years ago" is not really a valid argument.
 
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