What would you do differently at Versailles in 1919?

1) Give Italy and Japan more territories than what they got to make them feel the War was worth it.

2) Free Trade with Germany

3) The War Guilt clause is shared broadly among the Central Powers.

4) Give the Jews a Homeland in Palestine, the Kurds their own state in the East, and turn Lebanon into a country for Middle Eastern Christians. Give Greece most of what it wants in terms of territory (Megali idea), and, incidentally, force any successor Turkish state to recognise the Armenian Genocide. Since this was THE egregious sin of the war, I feel that the Ottomans have to be punished the most. Good to have a friend in control of the Bosporus too.

5) Don't mutilate Hungary for no reason whatsoever. Let it keep their ethnic majority areas and push them away from the Austro identity.

6) The German state will be occupied for thirty years, the Rhineland in perpetuity, and will then be granted an army of 250k men. There will be a victory parade through Berlin. In return, Germany will not lose any areas they have an ethnic majority in (except A-L), and in ten years, there will referendums in Austria and the Sunderland about whether the areas should go to Germany. So while Germany is militarily weaker, they won't be humiliated with the addition of new territories. Reparations in line with the Dawes plan.

7) The League of Nations devotes itself to Anti-Bolshevism and containing the Soviet Union. Sell the soldiers occupying Germany as if they're there to protect them from Bolsheviks.

Apart from that, basically the same.
 
Last edited:
I would have the war continued until Germany is properly beaten in the field and allied armies enter German territory

German armed forces are disbanded and Germany is forbidden from having one
Occupational army of sufficient numbers is created to occupy and if necessary protect German borders
It will be funded at the expense of German state at the level of the average of five year of their prewar military budget, adjusted for inflation

Germans are banned from owning firearms weapons other than revolvers and single shot rifles for police and animal control
Germany is banned from producing firearms other that those mentioned above
Yearly production of steel in Germany cannot exceed the average production of steel in France in last five years
Inspectors will be put in German factories at German state expense to ensure they don't break these above rules


France regains Alsace-Lorraine and will occupy Saar and Ruhr areas for period necessary to compensate for lost output of their own coal mines and industry (and Belgium's and Luxemburg's)

Poland will be given entirety of Upper Silesia, Greater Poland, and Polish Pomerania. East Prussia will be divided between Poland and Lithuania. Poland will gain Lwów and Polish majority area between Lithuania and Belarus without city of Vilnius which will be given to Lithuania with land corridor connecting it to Lithuania. Allies will intervene in cooperation with Poland and Romania to create independent Ukrainian and Belarus republics.

Germany will lose their colonies

Some areas or other are transferred to Belgium, Italy, Yugoslavia etc

German Austria is attached to Germany

Germany will be federal republic, divided into lands of around 5 million inhabitants, with weak central government

Hungary will lose areas with non hungarian majority and will become a parliamentary republic
 
Versailles from OTL but Britain and France maintaining a zone of occupation perhaps Rheinland for France and the North Sea ports (Hanover) for Britain.

This will be paid for by Germany in addition to reparations.

I'd probably increase the reparations but make it so that military equipment left behind by the Germany military counted towards reparations at a fair value.
 
German armed forces are disbanded and Germany is forbidden from having one
Occupational army of sufficient numbers is created to occupy and if necessary protect German borders
Germans are banned from owning firearms weapons other than revolvers and single shot rifles for police and animal control
Germany is banned from producing firearms other that those mentioned above
Sounds like a ripe fruit for Stalin to invade.

IMO, we should follow the peace of 1945 (forced political and economic change) with the reestablishment of the Bundeswehr as a counter to the Russians.
 
Germany: Loss of A-L to France and Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium (that with a provision that Germany can buy back the place later if Belgium agree), Danzig a free city under the LoN but after 20 years a referendum to decide the final owner of the city can be done; Memel and more of Posen retained by Germany (as OTL referendum clearly showed). Same armed forces limit of OTL...but limited to a twenty years period (except the Navy that get after the 20 years period the same deal of OTL Anglo-German Naval Agreement), union with Austria possible only after 20 years and with a referendum. Reparation on par with the Dawes Plan from the beginning and even lower if the German fleet is not scuttled but divided between the winner. Loss of the colonial empire. War guilt being assigned to the A-H empire that's 'unfortunely' dead and a victory parade in Berlin.

Italy: get what promised in the treaty of London of 1915, colonial reward as OTL and Fiume go to jugoslavia; all is resolved quickly and so no drama and humilation of the italian delegation, no mutilated victory and weakening of the liberal italian goverment

Hungary: block the Romanian to extend their zone of occupation in Transylvania but give them part of the reparation
 
Lots of genuine ideas but very few that are possible in 1919.

1) 4 years of propaganda cannot be forgotten overnight.
2) Terms that make it look as if Germany won are not going to fly. Germany is not going to gain territory, its not going to be allowed to merge with Austria ever. It will lose territory just like France did in 1870.
3) Remember Northern France has been trashed as has most of Belgium. The main aim of those countries will be to ensure that Germany is not strong enough to try again. This will outrank all other concerns. OTL is about as good as it gets for Germany, if the war had ended before the Americans arrived, the terms would have been even harsher.
4) War guilt is a bit strange as I've been told it depends on the language that the treaty is read in. English says guilt for damages , German says guilt for war
 
Add an Entente Victory Parade through Berlin

Which would change absolutely nothing once the troops had gone home.

Basically, I'd like all territorial transfers to be by plebiscite, though I'd probably have to make an exception for Alsace-Lorraine, as (unless the terms of the Armistice are improbably different) the French are already in possession and I'd have no power to make them withdraw.

Sadly, though, I fear that it doesn't really matter. The anti-German fury of Entente voters ensures a harsh peace - which their war-weariness ensures will go unenforced. Europe was already on course for the worst of both worlds before the Paris Peace Conference even met.
 
in a perfect hindsight environment then the British and French would be stupid to not force a breakup of the German state, or else they condemn themselves to eventual geo political displacement regionally due to economic outputs over time.

If they have the will power to enforce their terms, then the OTL treaty will do fine. No need to change it at all.

If they don't, this treaty will be undone just as OTL's was. No point in making any changes.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
Declare that the German Republic is a complete different subject than the German Empire and therefore can not be held responsible for the actions of the later.
Turn around and leave after burning the castle to the ground...
 
Declare that the German Republic is a complete different subject than the German Empire and therefore can not be held responsible for the actions of the later.
Turn around and leave after burning the castle to the ground...
A lot of people want a ww2 in the 1920s in this thread.
 

oberdada

Gone Fishin'
A lot of people want a ww2 in the 1920s in this thread.
The second sentence was meant as a joke.
And Germany was in no position to resume the war, but still, it is what Soviet Russia did with the debts of the Czardom.
 
Didn't Russia mobilize before Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, though? Indeed, I seem to recall BlondieBC previously saying something to this effect.

Russia enacted partial mobilization (of the military-administrative districts bordering Austria) on 29 July, in other words: after Austria declared war on Serbia. General mobilization was ordered a day after that.

You are perhaps referring to Russia entering the "state of preparation" on 26 July. This was not the same thing as mobilization...nor is mobilization the same thing as actually declaring war and attacking.
And while this was before Austria's declaration of war, it was also after Austria's ultimatum, the Central Powers' rejection of several sincere proposals for mediation, the departure of German-sponsored jihad teams to foment rebellion in Russia...

So yeah, I don't see the War Guilt clause as unjustified or particularly harmful. But I don't wish to derail this thread from its original purpose into yet another "who's to blame for starting WWI" debate.
So, you're saying that Germany's war guilt entitles Britain to also have some reparations from Germany? If so, why not also give the U.S. some German reparations?

AFAIK most of the reparations paid to Britain went towards repaying Britain's debts to the US. I do not think that the US even requested direct reparations?
Agreed with all of this. (Also, for the record, I didn't make Bosnia and Herzegovina independent since there are too many Serbs there and clear borders can't really be drawn there; indeed, I don't want a Bosnian War, but seven decades early.)

Agreed. Though I don't think war is an unavoidable outcome of letting the Serbs, the Bosniaks and the Croats of the region all choose their own status.
Ukrainian nationalists managed to help bring down the Soviet Union in our TL, though. Indeed, if it wasn't for Ukraine, some kind of union might have survived (true, the remaining SSRs were demanding extremely large devolution, but if the Union is still intact, power could possibly gradually be redirected back towards the Kremlin). Plus, this is not to mention that, without western Ukraine, Ukraine might have very well shifted back into Russia's orbit in 2013-2014 in our TL.

Basically, I am looking at a century-long viewpoint here; indeed, anything which helps to eventually bring down the Soviet Union, the better. (Also, I was thinking of adding Subcarpathian Ruthenia to the Soviet Union, but I was hoping that this could be done after the Stalin era was over. After all, I don't want the Ruthenians to suffer and prematurely putting them inside of the Soviet Union will accomplish just that with no gain (since the Ruthenians weren't particularly nationalistic)). Basically, while I'd like an independent Ukraine (and Belarus) to survive, I would consider this to be extremely unrealistic and thus I'd like to try setting the stage for these countries to regain their independence in the future (probably after 70 or more years).

If the goal was to undermine a limp-wristed, crumbling Gorbachev-style USSR, then I guess that's a reasonable method. OTOH, there are too many variables to assume that the USSR will reach that state without major turbulence in the timeline.
 
If there's to be any hope at all of a peace that isn't sufficiently draconian to trigger thoughts of revenge in Germany (thus, among other things, helping fuel the rise of Hitler), Clemenceau needs to be told to shut his mouth early on.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Hungary gets to keep all Hungarian minority areas.

The Czechs and Slovenian get separate states. The German majority areas are allowed to join Germany, likewise Austria is too.

Poland gets all polish majority areas but they don't get a coastline. Germany remains connected.

Lower reparations they've only got to pay for actual damages.

Serbia only gets Serb areas, Croatia is likewise given Croat areas (divided Bosnia) Serbia given somewhere it can build a port. Which may be a Croatian majority area.

Serbia does have to give Kosovo to Albania.

No Montenegro annexation, Montenegro is given some territory to its coastline.

Japan is given something in Africa and Danzig, because.

Belgium is divided between France and the Netherlands.

France holds a plebiscite in AL

Luxembourg is given the Luxembourg province of Belgium.

Italy doesn't get anything more than the Italian areas of Tyrol.

Italy is given a few islands which have Italians in Dalmatia, as well as something German in the Pacific.

No-one is blamed outright it's an effort to keep it from happening again.

Denmark doesn't get anything.

I thought you were serious until I reread it and saw Danzig being given to Japan.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Treaty of Versailles was absolutely fair for a losing nation. If you want an example of an unfair treaty, look at Trianon or Sevres. The only thing wrong with the ToV was that the Allies didn't enforce it. France should have invaded Germany the moment the Rhineland was remilitarized.

For the Treaty of Saint-Germain, Austria should have kept Slovenia and the Southern Sudetenland.
 
Top