What would you do differently at Versailles in 1919?

CaliGuy

Banned
If you were in complete control of the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, what exactly would you do differently?

As for me:

1. Make reparations based on the amount of damage that countries who were occupied by the Central Powers during WWI (such as France, Belgium, Serbia, and Romania) suffered. Also, avoid giving any reparations to countries who weren't occupied by the Central Powers during WWI. Also, no war guilt clause.
2. Germany is allowed to annex Austria, the Sudetenland, and South Tyrol (I'm sympathetic to Italy's security argument, but its poor treatment of the South Tyrolese Germans for the next 50 years in our TL disqualifies Italy from acquiring South Tyrol) in 1919.
3. A plebiscite is held in Eupen-Malmedy to determine its fate.
4. Instead of Czechoslovakia, separate Czech and Slovak states are created.
5. Separate Croatian and Slovenian states are created in the parts of Yugoslavia (in our TL) where those two groups are a majority of the population. Also, Montenegro keeps its independence. Bosnia and the other territories still become a part of Yugoslavia, though.
6. A nominally independent Kurdistan (as a British League of Nations Mandate) is created out of the Kurdish-majority parts of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.
7. Hungary gets to keep the Hungarian-majority areas which are located right outside of its 1920 Trianon borders in our TL.
8. Poland gets Danzig, all of Upper Silesia, and southern East Prussia (with no plebiscites anywhere there) while losing its eastern territories with large numbers of Ukrainians and Belarusians (these territories go to the Soviet Union). Basically, Germany is going to be ungrateful in any case and thus should lose as much territory as possible in the East while the Soviet Union is going to get a poison pill due to its annexation of territories filled with Ukrainian nationalists in this TL (as intended; after all, I want Ukrainian nationalists to eventually bring down the Soviet Union and deliver national self-determination for its various SSRs).
9. In the Middle East, a separate, nominally independent (but under a French LoN mandate) Alawite state is created in coastal Syria while the rest of Syria--along with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq--is annexed to (Trans-)Jordan (nominally independent but under a British LoN mandate). Indeed, hopefully the Hashemites are more capable of keeping Islamist extremists in check than the Assad family was; plus, with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq a part of Greater Syria, people like Saddam Hussein wouldn't be able to cause trouble in Iraq.
10. Bulgaria is allowed to keep a small strip of territory which allows it to have continued access to the Aegean Sea. Greece annexes the rest of this territory, though.
11. A commission is established to investigate whether or not any borders need to be redrawn in the West's current colonies in order to more closely adhere to the principles of national self-determination. If it is discovered that some colonial borders need to be redrawn in order to more closely adhere to this principle, these borders should be redrawn as soon as possible.
12. Sweden acquires the Aland Islands.
13. China acquires both Qingdao and Shandong.

Anyway, what exactly am I missing and/or forgetting here?

Also, any thoughts on what I wrote here?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Do the French get AL?
Yes, of course. Similarly, Italy gets everything that it got in our TL and nothing more.

Basically, I only talked about things which I would have done differently. Indeed, if something isn't mentioned in my OP, then I didn't want to make any changes to it in comparison to our TL.
 
- Much lower reparations for Germany.
- No demilitarisation of Rheinland.
- Not such limitations for German army as in OTL.
- Plebiscite about Eupen-Malmedy
- Allow Austria join to Germany.
- Posen to Germany but in Silesia plescipites county by country.
- Keep land connection between East Prussia and rest of Germany.
- Plebiscite over Memel region.
- Hungary lost only non-Hungarian regions.
- Serb majority Bosnia to Serbia and independence for Croatia and Slovenia.
- Only Italian part of Tyrol for Italy.
- Independent Kurdistan.
- Creation of Hashemite Arab Kingdom which contain all Ottoman Arab territories.
 
1. put in real enforcement measures. The allies will occupy the principal points of Germany until the reparations are paid in full. The Germans will pay the occupation costs as well. Germany could easily have paid the reparations- which were cheaper than Hitler's arms build up, they just didn't want to pay

2. Poland needs defensible borders- they are allowed to occupy Germany East of the Oder. The locals can have self rule but the Polish army is allowed free reign. No German troops allowed either

3. Same for France- the Rhineland is to be permanently under Franco-Belgian occupation

4. Once their share of the reparations are paid, each German state is to have a free independent existence

5. Abolition of all trade barriers between the parties.

This is harsh to Germany but not the Germans. As mentioned, the reparations are lower than Hitler's arms build up not to mention the destruction of Germany and fifty years of Soviet occupation.

Free trade would lead to an economic boom and tie the countries closely together
 
Hungary gets to keep all Hungarian minority areas.

The Czechs and Slovenian get separate states. The German majority areas are allowed to join Germany, likewise Austria is too.

Poland gets all polish majority areas but they don't get a coastline. Germany remains connected.

Lower reparations they've only got to pay for actual damages.

Serbia only gets Serb areas, Croatia is likewise given Croat areas (divided Bosnia) Serbia given somewhere it can build a port. Which may be a Croatian majority area.

Serbia does have to give Kosovo to Albania.

No Montenegro annexation, Montenegro is given some territory to its coastline.

Japan is given something in Africa and Danzig, because.

Belgium is divided between France and the Netherlands.

France holds a plebiscite in AL

Luxembourg is given the Luxembourg province of Belgium.

Italy doesn't get anything more than the Italian areas of Tyrol.

Italy is given a few islands which have Italians in Dalmatia, as well as something German in the Pacific.

No-one is blamed outright it's an effort to keep it from happening again.

Denmark doesn't get anything.
 
...
Also, any thoughts on what I wrote here?

It's not a bad draft.
Some thoughts and ideas, in no particular order:

-The powers should agree and publicly proclaim that Germany will be allowed to absorb Austria after 5-10 years...conditional on Germany (and Austria) scrupulously observing the obligations of the treaty (genuine demilitarization, reparations on schedule, observance of political clauses). IIRC this idea was already mentioned in an older thread.
-There should, however, still be a War Guilt clause IMO.
-It's reasonable to assign the bulk of reparations to countries which were occupied and devastated by the Central Powers. However, this doesn't mean Britain shouldn't receive reparations. Also, Germany and Austria should probably pay a limited indemnity to their former ally Bulgaria (for their role in causing the Bulgarian famines during the war).
-The status and territorial composition of Montenegro should be determined by an internationally supervised plebiscite. Similar plebiscites should determine the borders of Croatia and Slovenia, and allow them to choose between complete independence or integration into a federal Yugoslav state. Ditto for establishing the union - or separate status - of Czechia and Slovakia.
-Poland should not lose its OTL eastern territories (unless they can be transferred to an independent Ukraine and/or a non-communist Russian state). I'm skeptical about the ability of Ukrainian nationalists to bring down the USSR.
 
9. In the Middle East, a separate, nominally independent (but under a French LoN mandate) Alawite state is created in coastal Syria while the rest of Syria--along with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq--is annexed to (Trans-)Jordan (nominally independent but under a British LoN mandate). Indeed, hopefully the Hashemites are more capable of keeping Islamist extremists in check than the Assad family was; plus, with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq a part of Greater Syria, people like Saddam Hussein wouldn't be able to cause trouble in Iraq.
Israel created from seized Ottoman territory, including OTL occupied territories.

IsraelMap.jpg


The newly independent Jordanians won't like it, but too bad.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
It's not a bad draft.
Some thoughts and ideas, in no particular order:

-The powers should agree and publicly proclaim that Germany will be allowed to absorb Austria after 5-10 years...conditional on Germany (and Austria) scrupulously observing the obligations of the treaty (genuine demilitarization, reparations on schedule, observance of political clauses). IIRC this idea was already mentioned in an older thread.

OK; however, Germany should be allowed to annex the northern Sudetenland immediately since it wouldn't be very compact with the rest of Austria (meanwhile, the southern Sudetenland should go to Austria).

-There should, however, still be a War Guilt clause IMO.

Didn't Russia mobilize before Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, though? Indeed, I seem to recall BlondieBC previously saying something to this effect.

-It's reasonable to assign the bulk of reparations to countries which were occupied and devastated by the Central Powers. However, this doesn't mean Britain shouldn't receive reparations.

So, you're saying that Germany's war guilt entitles Britain to also have some reparations from Germany? If so, why not also give the U.S. some German reparations?

Also, Germany and Austria should probably pay a limited indemnity to their former ally Bulgaria (for their role in causing the Bulgarian famines during the war).

Agreed (and thanks for this information).

-The status and territorial composition of Montenegro should be determined by an internationally supervised plebiscite. Similar plebiscites should determine the borders of Croatia and Slovenia, and allow them to choose between complete independence or integration into a federal Yugoslav state. Ditto for establishing the union - or separate status - of Czechia and Slovakia.

Agreed with all of this. (Also, for the record, I didn't make Bosnia and Herzegovina independent since there are too many Serbs there and clear borders can't really be drawn there; indeed, I don't want a Bosnian War, but seven decades early.)

-Poland should not lose its OTL eastern territories (unless they can be transferred to an independent Ukraine and/or a non-communist Russian state). I'm skeptical about the ability of Ukrainian nationalists to bring down the USSR.

Ukrainian nationalists managed to help bring down the Soviet Union in our TL, though. Indeed, if it wasn't for Ukraine, some kind of union might have survived (true, the remaining SSRs were demanding extremely large devolution, but if the Union is still intact, power could possibly gradually be redirected back towards the Kremlin). Plus, this is not to mention that, without western Ukraine, Ukraine might have very well shifted back into Russia's orbit in 2013-2014 in our TL.

Basically, I am looking at a century-long viewpoint here; indeed, anything which helps to eventually bring down the Soviet Union, the better. (Also, I was thinking of adding Subcarpathian Ruthenia to the Soviet Union, but I was hoping that this could be done after the Stalin era was over. After all, I don't want the Ruthenians to suffer and prematurely putting them inside of the Soviet Union will accomplish just that with no gain (since the Ruthenians weren't particularly nationalistic)). Basically, while I'd like an independent Ukraine (and Belarus) to survive, I would consider this to be extremely unrealistic and thus I'd like to try setting the stage for these countries to regain their independence in the future (probably after 70 or more years).

Also, off-topic, but I realized that I should have mentioned that I would have made Lebanon smaller in this TL. Indeed, I would have limited Lebanon to the Christian-majority areas as well as to a strip which connects it to Palestine. As for the rest of Lebanon, it should join (Greater) Syria in this TL.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
Israel created from seized Ottoman territory.

IsraelMap.jpg


The Jordanians won't like it, but too bad.
Yeah, I didn't mention Palestine here because I didn't want to make any changes to our TL's arrangement there. Indeed, Palestine is certainly a good place for Jews who need refuge to immigrate to.

Hungary gets to keep all Hungarian minority areas.

Agreed--with the exception of Bratislava (to give Slovakia access to the Danube) and Szekely Land (due to it being completely surrounded by Romanian-majority areas).

The Czechs and Slovenian get separate states.

Agreed--at least if a referendum results in a majority in favor of separate states.

The German majority areas are allowed to join Germany, likewise Austria is too.

Agreed--either immediately or after, say, 5 or 10 years.

Poland gets all polish majority areas but they don't get a coastline. Germany remains connected.

At the very least there should be a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor.

Lower reparations they've only got to pay for actual damages.

Reasonable.

Serbia only gets Serb areas, Croatia is likewise given Croat areas (divided Bosnia) Serbia given somewhere it can build a port. Which may be a Croatian majority area.

Agreed with all of this.

Serbia does have to give Kosovo to Albania.

In theory, agreed. In practice, not happening considering that Serbia is on the winning side of World War I.

No Montenegro annexation, Montenegro is given some territory to its coastline.

Agreed--at least if the Montenegrin people want continued independence.

Japan is given something in Africa

If Japan wants it, I suppose. However, there need to be firm commitments that human rights will be protected there and that this colony will eventually become independent.

and Danzig, because.

Hahahahahaha! :D No--not even in your wildest dreams!

Belgium is divided between France and the Netherlands.

Not happening--Belgium is on the winning side and Belgians might have very well already warmed up to their separate state by now.

France holds a plebiscite in AL

OK.

Luxembourg is given the Luxembourg province of Belgium.

How about holding a plebiscite there instead?

Italy doesn't get anything more than the Italian areas of Tyrol.

Agreed--plus Trieste and western Istria. Meanwhile, there is a plebiscite in eastern Istria + Fiume to determine who gets it.

Italy is given a few islands which have Italians in Dalmatia, as well as something German in the Pacific.

Agreed.

No-one is blamed outright it's an effort to keep it from happening again.

OK.

Denmark doesn't get anything.

Why not?

1. put in real enforcement measures. The allies will occupy the principal points of Germany until the reparations are paid in full. The Germans will pay the occupation costs as well. Germany could easily have paid the reparations- which were cheaper than Hitler's arms build up, they just didn't want to pay

2. Poland needs defensible borders- they are allowed to occupy Germany East of the Oder. The locals can have self rule but the Polish army is allowed free reign. No German troops allowed either

3. Same for France- the Rhineland is to be permanently under Franco-Belgian occupation

4. Once their share of the reparations are paid, each German state is to have a free independent existence

5. Abolition of all trade barriers between the parties.

This is harsh to Germany but not the Germans. As mentioned, the reparations are lower than Hitler's arms build up not to mention the destruction of Germany and fifty years of Soviet occupation.

Free trade would lead to an economic boom and tie the countries closely together

To be honest, I strongly doubt that ~20 million Germans would enjoy permanently living under foreign occupation. :(
 

CaliGuy

Banned
- Much lower reparations for Germany.

Agreed.

- No demilitarisation of Rheinland.
- Not such limitations for German army as in OTL.

Why?

- Plebiscite about Eupen-Malmedy

Agreed.

- Allow Austria join to Germany.

Agreed--either immediately or after 5 or 10 years. Also, the Sudetenland should also join Germany (for the northern part, immediately; for the southern part, perhaps after 5 or 10 years along with Austria).

- Posen to Germany but in Silesia plescipites county by country.

OK in regards to Silesia, but why exactly should Posen be given to Germany? Indeed, at the very least, why not hold a plebiscite there?

- Keep land connection between East Prussia and rest of Germany.

Why not a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor instead?

- Plebiscite over Memel region.

OK.

- Hungary lost only non-Hungarian regions.

Szekely Land has to be lost due to the fact that it is surrounded by Romanian-majority areas. Or do you think that it would be better to hold a winner-take-all plebiscite in Transylvania?

- Serb majority Bosnia to Serbia and independence for Croatia and Slovenia.

Agreed--at least if a referendum results in majority support for independence in Croatia and Slovenia.

- Only Italian part of Tyrol for Italy.

Why not Trieste and western Istria?

- Independent Kurdistan.

Agreed.

- Creation of Hashemite Arab Kingdom which contain all Ottoman Arab territories.

Actually, it would be better for such a state to exclude the Christian-majority areas of Lebanon and the Shia-majority areas of Iraq.
 
To be honest, I strongly doubt that ~20 million Germans would enjoy permanently living under foreign occupation. :(

Maybe, maybe not. Occupation doesn't mean direct rule Occupation means the right to keep your army there. Its basically what happens to Germany after WWII The Western Zones aren't bad, the Eastern one is

In any event, I think they'll enjoy it a whole lot more than being bombed into oblivion and having the Red Army occupy a third of the country In any event, the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and other victims of Nazi aggression would be much better off

Germany lost the war. Letting her rearm and challenge the peace is the dumbest thing ever done
 
Germany keeps its Eastern lands connecting it with East Prussia.
Austria remains independent, gains the Sudetenland
Italy gets the Italian parts of Tyro Trieste and western Istrial
Al goes to France
Germany is demilitarized for 20 years and the Rhineland is occupied by France , UK and US for 10 years.
Rump Germany's independence guaranteed by the US as the least hostile of the big three.
The Balkans stay balkanized. Serbia had a large responsibility for the war and I am in complete control so Serbia gets nothing.
Same repartitions but free trade for Germany as well. They need to be able to earn money to actually pay the repartitions.
Hungary gets to keep all Hungarian minority areas with the exception of Bratislava (to give Slovakia access to the Danube) and Szekely Land (due to it being completely surrounded by Romanian-majority areas) as Caliguy suggests.
Independent Kurdistan
 
Lower reparations than OTL so Germany can actually pay them it will be paid primarily to countries who have suffered damage from German action.
the Poles get everything they get OTL probably save for some minor border adjustments Danzig goes to Germany though none of the free city nonsense but they have to construct the Poles a port at Gydnia.
Independent Kurdistan
a plebiscite on Czechoslovakia to decide either sperate states or not
Rhineland still demilitarized
slightly larger German army 250000 men instead of 100000
plebiscite for the Balkans on whether or not to form Yugoslavia
everything else OTL
 
I would only change one thing - give Lithuania not just Klaipėda (none of that French-occupied region nonsense), but also the rest of Lithuania Minor.
 
sorry, are we operating from a position of perfect hindsight here?

if not, how do we justify these positions to domestic audiences?

there's a difference between signing a piece of paper and then having the CIGS calmly walk You back into the room to have another crack at it because he just lost half a million guys persecuting a conflict only to make Germany more prosperous than it was before.....

in a perfect hindsight environment then the British and French would be stupid to not force a breakup of the German state, or else they condemn themselves to eventual geo political displacement regionally due to economic outputs over time.
 
If you were in complete control of the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, what exactly would you do differently?

As for me:

1. Make reparations based on the amount of damage that countries who were occupied by the Central Powers during WWI (such as France, Belgium, Serbia, and Romania) suffered. Also, avoid giving any reparations to countries who weren't occupied by the Central Powers during WWI. Also, no war guilt clause.
2. Germany is allowed to annex Austria, the Sudetenland, and South Tyrol (I'm sympathetic to Italy's security argument, but its poor treatment of the South Tyrolese Germans for the next 50 years in our TL disqualifies Italy from acquiring South Tyrol) in 1919.
3. A plebiscite is held in Eupen-Malmedy to determine its fate.
4. Instead of Czechoslovakia, separate Czech and Slovak states are created.
5. Separate Croatian and Slovenian states are created in the parts of Yugoslavia (in our TL) where those two groups are a majority of the population. Also, Montenegro keeps its independence. Bosnia and the other territories still become a part of Yugoslavia, though.
6. A nominally independent Kurdistan (as a British League of Nations Mandate) is created out of the Kurdish-majority parts of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.
7. Hungary gets to keep the Hungarian-majority areas which are located right outside of its 1920 Trianon borders in our TL.
8. Poland gets Danzig, all of Upper Silesia, and southern East Prussia (with no plebiscites anywhere there) while losing its eastern territories with large numbers of Ukrainians and Belarusians (these territories go to the Soviet Union). Basically, Germany is going to be ungrateful in any case and thus should lose as much territory as possible in the East while the Soviet Union is going to get a poison pill due to its annexation of territories filled with Ukrainian nationalists in this TL (as intended; after all, I want Ukrainian nationalists to eventually bring down the Soviet Union and deliver national self-determination for its various SSRs).
9. In the Middle East, a separate, nominally independent (but under a French LoN mandate) Alawite state is created in coastal Syria while the rest of Syria--along with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq--is annexed to (Trans-)Jordan (nominally independent but under a British LoN mandate). Indeed, hopefully the Hashemites are more capable of keeping Islamist extremists in check than the Assad family was; plus, with the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Iraq a part of Greater Syria, people like Saddam Hussein wouldn't be able to cause trouble in Iraq.
10. Bulgaria is allowed to keep a small strip of territory which allows it to have continued access to the Aegean Sea. Greece annexes the rest of this territory, though.
11. A commission is established to investigate whether or not any borders need to be redrawn in the West's current colonies in order to more closely adhere to the principles of national self-determination. If it is discovered that some colonial borders need to be redrawn in order to more closely adhere to this principle, these borders should be redrawn as soon as possible.
12. Sweden acquires the Aland Islands.
13. China acquires both Qingdao and Shandong.

Anyway, what exactly am I missing and/or forgetting here?

Also, any thoughts on what I wrote here?

Pretty good, though I wouldn't give the Soviet Union anything.

Also, give Japan a few minor territories and treat them better in naval treaties, giving them less complaints to feed their militarists.
 
Austria keeps Tyrol and Sudetenland, re-gains southern Silesia and gains Bavaria. Karl is to renounce the throne and go into exile. Young Otto von Habsburg is to be the new Kaiser, to be betrothed to a Wittelsbach princess.

Germany* to have all heavy industry dismantled in exchange for no reparations.
upload_2017-8-8_13-46-58.png


Wonder how long it takes for the next war to break out...
 
WW1 may not have occurred had the German states not unified in the 1860-70s. So, my TOV breaks up Germany into several independent nations, with solid democratic rules in place. In order to give these states a chance at success, I'd skip all financial reparations. East Prussia is mostly lost to create Poland.
 
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