What would VTOL-on-VTOL combat be like?

Thande

Donor
OTL produced only one really successful VTOL fighter, the Harrier, and that certainly had a troubled design career. Let's imagine the American and Soviet VTOL projects went better than OTL and they also managed to produce VTOL fighters. This means a better chance of the two ending up fighting each other at the hands of two third world clients or whatever.

The question is, what do you think air combat between VTOL fighters would be like?
 
Awesome.




Also a lot like Helicopter on Helicopter fighting or maybe normal Fighter combat but with much tighter turns.
 
Well, it depends on the method. Aeroplanes like the probably never gonna see service F-35 and Yak-141 can't actually do VIFF, due to the different methods of VTOL.
 
Thande's talking about the Cold War era, so forget the F-35B. In any case VIFF works best under 400 knots, which is not the best place to be in a dogfight.
 

Bearcat

Banned
VIFFing only comes in at close range. At sea, BVR missiles become preponderant late in the Cold War.
 
I suspect, this would all come down to which is the best Short range air to air missile, Sidewinder for the U.S & either Atoll, or later on Aphid, for the Soviets...
 
It really depends on what V/STOL aircraft we are talking about. For example with the Sea Harrier FA.2 it would try to kill its opponent from beyond visual range with AMRAAMs.
 

Thande

Donor
Well I'm really talking about dogfighting with cannon, which would presumably happen in an actual warfighting situation even if standard procedure was to engage with missiles from long range, because sooner or later two VTOL fighters which have exhausted their missiles are going to end up clashing.
 
So they use VIFF to turn inside their opponents, which can come in handy when using a Low Yo-Yo or scissors for example. I've included diagrams below for the non-virtual fighter jockeys. :p

LYY



Scissors

 
AFAIK of the Cold War V/STOL aircraft only the Harrier could VIFF, but from Falklands War experience it might not be used all that much.
In a Cold War context the only plausible combat would be Sea Harrier FRS.1/AV-8A Vs Yak-38 and I know which side I'd put my money on. If the Argentineans had bought the Harrier we could have seen Sea Harrier Vs Harrier combat.

Post-Cold War there is only really Harrier Vs Harrier, for example AV-8B Vs Sea Harrier FRS.51. The first generation Harrier is faster and more agile than the second-generation one, so in guns combat the USMC aircraft could find itself in trouble.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Also if the Cold War lasts longer you might see the various improved Harriers versus the new Yak (-141?). That would be interesting.

BVR will rule at sea if one side has it. Over land, the need to visually ID targets and ground masking of radar make knife fighting much more likely.

One other tactic I can think of might be to sit several Harriers (for instance) down in a radar blind spot. Another one or two Harriers lure the opposing fighters past this point, the hidden fighters pop up and fire.
 
The improved Harriers, especially something like the FA.2, or AV-8B+ would probably do better than the Yak-41. IIRC the 'Freestyle' didn't ever achieve supersonic flight.
 
Well, it depends on the method. Aeroplanes like the probably never gonna see service F-35 and Yak-141 can't actually do VIFF, due to the different methods of VTOL.

The Yak-41 is indeed dead and buried, but the Dave B is alive and well (though not in the RAF/RN). I suspect the massive political influence the USMC enjoys in Congress will keep Dave B alive.

Like Dave A and C it will kill its opponents from a distance with AMRAAM/Meteor.
 
VTOL Fighter planes taking off from Ekranoplane carriers!

[I wish i had a picture to put here, sorry]

Actually if you have ekranoplan carriers, you don't need VTOL. Just cradles to release/catch airplanes as the ship/Mother plane is already going at speeds above stall.

So if one economized on the fighters, concentrating on making them very good jet fighters but not messing around with VIFF and the like, then I guess they might be outmaneuvered by the VTOLs but they could easily overwhelm these with numbers, and very good high-speed performance.
 
Why is the Harrier called the "Dave"?

The Harrier isn't called the Dave, it's the British nickname for the F-35. The origins are a little obscure but apparently the members of PPRUNE were less than impressed by the choice of Lightning II (US)/Lightning (UK) as the aircraft's name. Apparently someone suggested that 'they might as well have called it Dave'. :D
 

Thande

Donor
The Harrier isn't called the Dave, it's the British nickname for the F-35. The origins are a little obscure but apparently the members of PPRUNE were less than impressed by the choice of Lightning II (US)/Lightning (UK) as the aircraft's name. Apparently someone suggested that 'they might as well have called it Dave'. :D

It's Lightning II in the UK as well, because of the English Electric Lightning.
 
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