Had the Confederate States of America survived into present day, I wonder what the USSR's relations with them during the cold war with the USA have been like? Would the CSA have become a pro-Moscow regime - despite being almost it's ideological opposite?
What would the Soviet Union's relations with the CSA have been like?
- Thread starter poster342002
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I'm presuming a scenario where, somehow, this isn't the case and both exist. Please humour me for the sake of an interesting thread!
Well, if the USA perceives England and France as responsible for the breakup of the nation then Russia, under any government, is liable to be seen as the natural ally. Of course, the real collapse of Soviet-CSA relations was when the US and USSR jointly supported Castro's successful movement which broke Cuba away from the CSA...
Assuming that the CSA doesnt eventually abolish slavery out of international pressure or its own economic liability, the USSR would prolly hate the CSA. What part of a nation that presumably still has slavery, however impractical, doesnt scream oppressor of the proletariat?
Assuming that the CSA doesnt eventually abolish slavery out of international pressure or its own economic liability, the USSR would prolly hate the CSA. What part of a nation that presumably still has slavery, however impractical, doesnt scream oppressor of the proletariat?
Indeed - but international politics can make some very strange bedfellows. If the USA and USSR were still at loggerheads, the Soviets might take the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" position...
Assuming that the CSA doesnt eventually abolish slavery out of international pressure or its own economic liability, the USSR would prolly hate the CSA. What part of a nation that presumably still has slavery, however impractical, doesnt scream oppressor of the proletariat?
Which itself could be intersting - maybe leading to a Soviet-CSA Cuba brisesof some kind? Or more likely a USA-CSA Cuban Missile Crises when the CSA learns of USA plans to station nukes on the island pointed at the CSA?
RedRalphWiggum
Banned
It would have despised them, as it did South Africa. the CSA would have been like a more right-wing USA, hardly a recepie for friendship with the USSR.
But their shared antogonism towards the USA does make for some interesting issues, doesn't it?
Let's remember that in OTL, post ACW South didn't only opress it's blacks but also poor whites. So in TTL, the CSA will probably end slavery at some point but it also will probably have similar opressive laws against both blacks and poor whites as in OTL.
So we might end up with CSA where most people are oppressed. And sooner or later...
Communist revolution in CSA!
So we might end up with CSA where most people are oppressed. And sooner or later...
Communist revolution in CSA!
RedRalphWiggum
Banned
Hmm.... I know what youre getting at, but I still think they would have depsised them, and out of the two would have viewed the USA more favourably than the CSA.
My thoughts exactly. The CSA continues to be ruled by landlords and aristocrats who expend the rest of the 19th century rebuilding themselves and keeping the lower classes down. Once WWI arrives, they sit out and just sell good to the combatants. When Russia falls to revolution, they make their best efforts to keep their population unaware of it, and once the USSR is finally born the CSA does not recognize it for decades. CSA revolutionaries, either black or white, find an ideological reference on the soviets.
The USA, on the other hand, might be inclined to use her role as banker of the world to recognize the USSR and trade with it while everybody else refuses to do so. Why? Well, first the USA is too far away to be threatened by the USSR. Second, the absence of Willson and the Solid South has let socialism to expand free over the NE USA and become a political force in the nation, resulting in a bigger labor movement that is the envy of southern workers and at the same time makes the possibility of any Soviet-inspired revolution very unlikely. Third, the USA is an economic and industrial powerhouse, while the USSR is a rural country full of resources but desperate to find somebody to trade with and help her to build her industry. They form a perfect couple, don't you think?
if CSA survives trough the 19th and 20th century theres a big chance of proletarian revolution, given it would be a poor, mainly rural nation with most political power concentrated in a minority of white aristocracy
if USA does not intervene and ocupy during or after this hipotetical revolution and CSA becomes CSSA the relation with SSSR would be great
at least until they get into some kind of theological dispute with Stalin and have a schism
if USA does not intervene and ocupy during or after this hipotetical revolution and CSA becomes CSSA the relation with SSSR would be great
at least until they get into some kind of theological dispute with Stalin and have a schism
TL with a communist revolution in CSA while USA is anti-communist, would be more interesting. At least in the Chinese sense...
Yes, after they were humiliated and lost the war. They cast part of the blame for their defeat on the Blacks of the South, and unfortunately took out their bitterness on them in the decades following the war.
In a victorious CSA timeline, I don't see there being nearly as much animosity between White and Black southerners. The Blacks would be freed at a more gradual rate, educated first and then freed once they were capable of properly living on their own and supporting themselves.
...Or it could be shitty like your version. It could really go either way.
Ismail
Banned
It depends. The Soviets would probably try to keep relations neutral and help establish organizations early on since the South would have more proletarians. As for the government, it'd probably be socially conservative (and slavery would of ended somewhere after 1880) but also have populist roots. Southern politicians were pretty populist when it came to Cuba, which they viewed as a great opportunity to help expand the Southern economy and make it more independent. Assuming history goes this way (Pierce keeps on encouraging filibusters and such to take Cuba and after a while Cuba falls) then let's review:
1917-1924: A divided US would of either meant that fewer US troops would get involved in the Russian Civil War, or that the British would encourage the CSA to also send troops, making it about equal to real life. Soviet foreign policy towards CSA is roughly same as USA, probably a more determined effort to establish organizations. (See above)
1924-1939: Same until Great Depression. Huey Long would probably be around with his populist views. Communist Party CSA possibly accuses Long of encouraging fascist tendencies (as CPUSA did IRL) or gets caught up in populism and endorses him under the banner of progress. Regardless, Long would probably win the Presidency if he ran in 1932 or 1936. He would probably isolate the CSA (further?) and keep it out of WWII. Might of been neutral concerning civil war in Spain.
1939-1946: Long would be unable to carry out his programs (which would already be quite an accomplishment IRL if ever successful) and continues to stay out of war. Assuming USA is relatively untouched in this version of history (then again, no Wilson), the post-war boom takes shape while CSA remains relatively backwards.
1946-1959: CSA would probably request aid and such for modernization from the British in order to keep up with the USA. Assuming a new, moderate President takes hold, we'd probably see mainly that. Now, IRL the Cuban Revolution was evidently anti-Batista. But with no Batista, and the CSA being a bit backwards economically, the Revolution probably would of been stronger. CSA would oppose and probably send troops. Assuming Revolution is a success, morale in CSA experiences a sharp decline and CSA-Soviet relations are impacted greatly.
That's about all I can think of right now.
1917-1924: A divided US would of either meant that fewer US troops would get involved in the Russian Civil War, or that the British would encourage the CSA to also send troops, making it about equal to real life. Soviet foreign policy towards CSA is roughly same as USA, probably a more determined effort to establish organizations. (See above)
1924-1939: Same until Great Depression. Huey Long would probably be around with his populist views. Communist Party CSA possibly accuses Long of encouraging fascist tendencies (as CPUSA did IRL) or gets caught up in populism and endorses him under the banner of progress. Regardless, Long would probably win the Presidency if he ran in 1932 or 1936. He would probably isolate the CSA (further?) and keep it out of WWII. Might of been neutral concerning civil war in Spain.
1939-1946: Long would be unable to carry out his programs (which would already be quite an accomplishment IRL if ever successful) and continues to stay out of war. Assuming USA is relatively untouched in this version of history (then again, no Wilson), the post-war boom takes shape while CSA remains relatively backwards.
1946-1959: CSA would probably request aid and such for modernization from the British in order to keep up with the USA. Assuming a new, moderate President takes hold, we'd probably see mainly that. Now, IRL the Cuban Revolution was evidently anti-Batista. But with no Batista, and the CSA being a bit backwards economically, the Revolution probably would of been stronger. CSA would oppose and probably send troops. Assuming Revolution is a success, morale in CSA experiences a sharp decline and CSA-Soviet relations are impacted greatly.
That's about all I can think of right now.
yes, the 20th century CSA would resemble OTL South Africa in that it would be an oppressive, reactionary pariah state which the soviets could score easy points in the developing world by opposing. Slavery would likely still exist in the Deep South well into the 20th century. The great Negro Migration to the urban north would never occur, because slaves wouldn't be allowed to leave, and instead poor whites would migrate north, cutting down on the white majority.
Right wing policy wasn’t an obstacle to being the SU's 'buddy' during Stalin's time, just promise him Alaska, or even let him take Canada too in return for Soviet aid during the 3rd USA-CSA war or whatever.