What would the Romans do if Carthage settled the Canaries and Cape Verde?

Which is why I think the best way to do it would be to still have Carthage maintain power in the Mediterranean and them still have close ties to Carthage.
 
I don't know if a colony in the Canarias would really have a large enough population to really push forward such innovation so quickly, and another issue is that's unlikely for the Romans to all be Catos and refuse the Carthaginians land access, especially when they're such an insignificant colony.

What might cause such far flung Carthaginian colonies to more or less wither on the vine would be lack of free access to Mediterranean markets which would make these colonies utterly dependent on Roman good will. The only other choices for these colonies are to Africanize -- to essentially throw in their lot with their W. African customers and likely quickly be culturally absorbed.

I've been thinking about this a bit more. While I haven't found a complete way to make it work, there are a couple of possibilities. One is that the Canarian colony needs to be set up sooner - just in the aftermath of the Second Punic War, c. 190 BC. This gives more time for the population to grow, get more familiar with the conditions, innovate technology, etc.

Another tweak is that I agree that it's unlikely to have Rome completely cut off the Canarian colony. (And yes, even if they did, then the colony would largely wither). So the Mediterranean is not completely closed to the Carthaginian colonists, and they have some trade there (and in Mauretania) in orchil, mastic, etc.

However, Hispania is forbidden to the Canarians. This is partly due to the events of the Second Punic War - i.e. with Iberia as a prime battleground - and the various Roman governors are wary of any resurgent Carthaginian influence. This is also partly because during the formative period of the Canarian colony, they do have some trade contact with the as-yet-unconquered parts of Hispania - Rome did not completely conquer the peninsula until about 16 DC, after all. So to maintain their trade in tin and other goods in Britain (and for a while, Atlantic Gaul), the Canarians slowly develop better ships and blue-water navigation.

Of course, they certainly need to develop better ships / navigational technology to make it across the Atlantic (and back). What I need to find out more about is how much better they would need to be. There's been various discussions in the past about how tech would need to improve, but I'm not sure how long that would plausibly need to take. Which is complicated by the uncertainty about just how good Carthage's ships and nav tech were in the first place. (Sailing around Africa isn't anything like making it across the Atlantic, but it's still better than anything which Rome could manage.)
 
And there Carthaginians make better ships and find the new World about 1000 years before Columbus and claim whole America for themselves?

Because the various native American peoples, not to mention the Aztec and Inca Empires are just pathetic saps that hand over their continent to the first white people they come across? How on Earth is a civilisation whose entire state power comes from a couple of small islands, presumably with no real standing army, supposed to project power across the Atlantic?
 
Neither the Aztec Empire nor the Inca Empire exist at the time of Carthage. Also the Carib and the Arawak are not at the level of the Mesoamericans nor Andeans much less Carthagineans. But it would still be more trade based as opposed to conquest.
 
You could have Mago Barca survive his return by boat to Carthage after his disastrous attempt to reach his brother Hannibal in 205bc. Mago apparently established Port Mahon in the Balearic Islands, so perhaps after the surrender he would endeavour to establish further outposts West during Hannibals rule of Carthage to create more revenue for the state to pay off the war reparations.

When Hannibals rule ends and he flees East after his government attempts to hand him over to the Romans, Mago could be left an enemy of the state isolated beyond the Pillars of Heracles with nowhere to go but further along the African coast.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I think an interesting angle would be if the Carthaginians-on-the-Canaries (CC's for short) developed something approximating decent deep water ships, they can survive in a few ways

1) Tin Trade (Well, british in general) They are in a fantastic place for Roman Merchants from Tangiers/Iberia to come to the Canaries, buy goods, and get home quickly. This I think could protect them largely from the Romans banning their ships from ports, unless the Romans explictly embargoed all trade between the CCs and Rome.

2) Resources - Whilst the islands themselves are lacking - if they can survive the diseases, creating small trade colonies in west africa and towards the Baltic could reap dividends - it may not be Hanseatic League level fantastic as urbanisation in some of the outlying regions is lacking - but if they build small cities and have them pay tribute, then the resources they could buy and trade could be valuable to the Romans.

3) Deep Water Mercenaries - If they have high quality ships, and their trade network, they could be invaluable mercenaries for any operations involving the Atlantic or North Sea. Julius Caesar invading Britain with Carthaginian transports? Uh yes please.

Regards crossing the Atlantic - they're probably best placed in the classical world - if they can get the wood, develop the ships, and have the money to spare from trade, but they aren't building an empire - maybe substantial trade ports (and therefore causing mass epidemics - ack) but if they are trading across the Atlantic? Then we're so far ahead of ourselves, we are now a dot. teeny dot. like... quantum dot.
 
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I had it in my head that Hannibal would trade with the Western African tribes creating an earlier Timbuktu and Ghana Empire which would create a more civilised West Africa, who are able to compete with Europe.


A plausible way is to have a couple of Carthaginian ships loaded with supplies, men and women planning to trade and set up a small community in Britain caught in the Canaries Current that takes their advance ships to the Mexican Gulf, where they are stranded and have to make a colony before traveling back to inform Europe of their find :)

atlantic-currents.gif

TL! TL! TL!
 
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