What would the effects of sedevacantism being a bigger deal among traditional catholics be.

If there was a catholic group of considerable size denying the legitimacy of the Popes how might this effect things? It has occurred to me that if they managed to draw off a significant number of the more traditional Catholics it might result in the mainline Catholic Church lurching further in a liberal direction? Or it might be forced to stay more conservative? Where might they be most popular?

I am thinking…..

The big challenges to a larger “sede” movement with an alternative conclave will be:

- finding bishops that are seen as having a legitimate lineage

- Avoiding fragmenting into competing factions, each with their own bishops and conclave.

- Fending off competition from the well established “sede light” SSPX (post Vatican II Popes are legitimate. But…. a good number of their actions are automatically void).

Legitimate lineage bishops could be defectors straight from the Vatican, or defectors from SSPX. Though others could be subbed in, their claim to a legitimate lineage could be weak. SSPX competition for souls is going to be fierce as it offers traditionalists everything the "sedes" do on a day to day basis. The movement could try to get SSPX as a near whole to go sede, but SSPX seems very happy with being “sede light”.

And now fragmentation….. Traditionalist groups from any religion tend to have strong personalities (resistant to compromise) and a lot of members looking for “pure doctrine”. This inevitably leads to arguments, often over minutia. My guess is that a stronger “sede” movement would fragment into competing groups and lose all hope of a conclave of any real size or perceived legitimacy. Rather, the sede movement would be continually swept by a series of excommunications, counter excommunications, parishes moving from one sede group to another sede group, priests or nuns defecting from one to another etc.
 
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More anti-catholicism on the left, so you see nativism being more acceptable in the US in the late 20th/early 21st century.

I suspect in ttl Trump would have won on making the (few allowed in after ttl's early 90s clampdowns) immigrants being limited to white christians only. Of course he'd accomplish as much with that as he has with the wall in OTL, absolutely nothing.
 
More anti-catholicism on the left, so you see nativism being more acceptable in the US in the late 20th/early 21st century.

I suspect in ttl Trump would have won on making the (few allowed in after ttl's early 90s clampdowns) immigrants being limited to white Christians only. Of course he'd accomplish as much with that as he has with the wall in OTL, absolutely nothing.
I fail to see why this would increase the anti-catholocism of the left. If anything by pulling away the more conservative elements of the mainstream Catholic Church it would increase the acceptability of the mainstream Church. What might make the left more hostile to Catholicism would be if the mainstream Church more strictly enforced its pro-life positions in the way that many conservatives wish it would (for example by excommunicating all catholic politicians that vote or speak in favour of abortion as has been called for by many traditionalists).
 
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A very good question. The basic answer is that one can be a catholic without being a Roman catholic. The Church of England for example defines itself as Catholic without recognizing the Pope.

I am sorry to divert the conversation momentarily, but I could not help noticing this particular line, this "basic answer". With all due respect to the opinions of the person who issued it, I fear that this answer could be affected by terminological confusion, because we must take into account that "Catholic" is a term with double meaning, like, for example, "Democrat" or "Republican". The Church of England can define itself as catholic, but so do the Orthodox Church, and the rest of the different Churches among which Christendom has been divided. This is because originally the word "catholic church" meant(and technically still does), "universal church". With the passage of time, the term has been used to refer specifically to the Churchs who are in full communion with the Pope, and its doctrine, in the same way that "Orthodox" or "Evangelical" has been used to refer to specific churches. However, that does not mean that the Roman Catholic Church is not orthodox or evangelical, or that the Orthodox Church (for example) is not catholic. If you ask a Roman Catholic theologian, he will tell you that the Church is Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman, but also Orthodox and Evangelical. If you ask an Orthodox, he will remind you that the official name of his Church has always been Orthodox Catholic Church, and the full name "Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church". Therefore, it is true that you can be catholic without being a Roman Catholic, but you can´t be a Catholic (At least, in the most commonly known sense of the word) without being a Roman Catholic, just like in the USA you can be a "democrat" without supporting/being part of the Democratic Party, but you must support/be a part of it to be a "Democrat".
 
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I fail to see why this would increase the anti-catholocism of the left. If anything by pulling away the more conservative elements of the mainstream Catholic Church it would increase the acceptability of the mainstream Church. What might make the left more hostile to Catholicism would be if the mainstream Church more strictly enforced its pro-life positions in the way that many conservatives wish it would (for example by excommunicating all catholic politicians that vote or speak in favour of abortion as has been called for by many traditionalists).
The mainstream church would more strictly enforce "pro-life" stuff at least until the late 2010s to try preventing a schism.
I agree, as in most splits regarding religous bodies, must of the hostility would be intra group, not inter group. And there would be room for legal hostility between mainstream Catholic factions and a large 'sede' movement. For example:

- What if conservative parishes with large numbers of 'sedes' initiate legal battles with liberal bishops over who truly owns a particular parish?
- What if a conservative Bishop goes 'sede', then moves to expel liberal clergy. Now it is the liberals filing suits over who truly owns a parish.
- Would Catholic colleges and universities go 'sede'- then purge liberal professors? Or, maybe progressive colleges go militantly 'anti sede' - then start firing real or suspected 'sedes'.
- Maybe a showdown at a monastery between 'sede' monks and 'non sede' monks over who controls the monastery and who can live there under what conditions?

And..... one case where the Catholic school associated with Saint Divisive parish goes 'sede' while the parish remains mainstream. Not to mention the legal smack down brawl occurring when two individuals, one "sede" and one mainstream both claim to be the "real" successor to a deceased bishop- and both start issuing orders regarding assignments and property.
 
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I actually think that Latin Rite Mass is gaining in popularity, particularly among younger Catholics, and not in a LARPing way either. I've attended it a number of times. I wouldn't call myself a trad Catholic, but I find a lot of serenity and peacefulness in it.
 
I agree, as in most splits regarding religous bodies, must of the hostility would be intra group, not inter group. And there would be room for legal hostility between mainstream Catholic factions and a large 'sede' movement. For example:

- What if conservative parishes with large numbers of 'sedes' initiate legal battles with liberal bishops over who truly owns a particular parish?
- What if a conservative Bishop goes 'sede', then moves to expel liberal clergy. Now it is the liberals filing suits over who truly owns a parish.
- Would Catholic colleges and universities go 'sede'- then purge liberal professors? Or, maybe progressive colleges go militantly 'anti sede' - then start firing real or suspected 'sedes'.
- Maybe a showdown at a monastery between 'sede' monks and 'non sede' monks over who controls the monastery and who can live there under what conditions?

And..... one case where the Catholic school associated with Saint Divisive parish goes 'sede' while the parish remains mainstream. Not to mention the legal smack down brawl occurring when two individuals, one "sede" and one mainstream both claim to be the "real" successor to a deceased bishop- and both start issuing orders regarding assignments and property.

Hmm this is quite similar to what happened with a lot of more Episcopal congregations who left the Episcopal Church due to its increasingly liberal stances on pretty much everything (but especially gay marriage). There was a lot of disagreement over if the local congregations owned the building or the central episcopal authority. From what I understand the courts pretty much ruled in favour of the central authority. The local congregations were unable to keep there buildings which has led to a lot of bitterness and anger especially as the mainstream episcopal Church is shrinking quite fast and so was unable to do anything but sell many of the buildings it thus claimed (often to non-christian organisations) leading to an impression that it had acted mostly out of spite.
 
I actually think that Latin Rite Mass is gaining in popularity, particularly among younger Catholics, and not in a LARPing way either. I've attended it a number of times. I wouldn't call myself a trad Catholic, but I find a lot of serenity and peacefulness in it.
I follow a lot of young trad-cats of tumblr and they are definitely very into Latin mass. I'm not sure how much that is just the sort of people I end up following though.
 
I follow a lot of young trad-cats of tumblr and they are definitely very into Latin mass. I'm not sure how much that is just the sort of people I end up following though.
The subset of Very Online Catholics who get into stuff like integralism is probably more of an online subculture than any discernible shift in how Catholicism is trending, but I think something that is a bit understated is how Latin Mass in multilingual communities functions much as it did in Medieval Europe, as a place where different ethnolinguistic groups meet with a commonality in practice. I know in some areas of Chicago, where there are massive Polish ethnic enclaves near Latin American enclaves, that this happens. At my college, where something similar exists perhaps not in language but just from a wide variety of backgrounds, that Latin Mass is increasingly popular.

I would also say however that there is to some extent an embrace of Latin Mass from people a few years older out of a disgust for how the post Vatican II church has failed in much of its mission. The areas where the Church hierarchy ideologically tied to Vatican II is strongest is where the Church is quite literally dying (Belgium is a prime example), while where much of the work being done in growing the Church is done with a more local flair but with a more traditional orientation on doctrinal matters (like in Nigeria and in Poland), and it has proved more successful. That trend, however, probably doesn't have as much to do with Latin Mass.
 
I actually think that Latin Rite Mass is gaining in popularity, particularly among younger Catholics, and not in a LARPing way either. I've attended it a number of times. I wouldn't call myself a trad Catholic, but I find a lot of serenity and peacefulness in it.

In Europe and Americans, may be. But it is difficult in placea that Latin is basically unheard. Never heard Latin in HK during my 13 years in a Catholic school.
 
The subset of Very Online Catholics who get into stuff like integralism is probably more of an online subculture than any discernible shift in how Catholicism is trending, but I think something that is a bit understated is how Latin Mass in multilingual communities functions much as it did in Medieval Europe, as a place where different ethnolinguistic groups meet with a commonality in practice. I know in some areas of Chicago, where there are massive Polish ethnic enclaves near Latin American enclaves, that this happens. At my college, where something similar exists perhaps not in language but just from a wide variety of backgrounds, that Latin Mass is increasingly popular.

Question though - is it just the regular mass except in Latin or the full enchilada 1962 Missal mass? Because there are big differences between the two, and seeing the former done would be interesting.
 
Question though - is it just the regular mass except in Latin or the full enchilada 1962 Missal mass? Because there are big differences between the two, and seeing the former done would be interesting.
It was the Tridentine Mass.

To be honest, I don't know what the Pauline mass in Latin would be like.
 
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