What would Mitteleuropa look like?

Germany could knock out the Russian revolution with ease. This isn't Mao, the Bolsheviks won because they held the cities and the industrial power they possessed. Send one column towards St Petersburg. This would be easy since they already have forces defending the Baltic states. Send another force towards Moscow. Bit harder, possiblity of defeat if the Germans decide to run it on a shoe string, but odds are they won't do that. With both St Petersburg and Moscow in German hands, and German logistical support for the Whites, the Reds will fold up pretty quickly.

I'm not so sure. First, any German victory in WW1 that still has a Russia means it was more a case of Germany being the last man standing than really winning the war. Germany will be as exhausted as the OTL Aies, and probably moreso.

Meanwhile, while it can probably occupy Moscow and so forth (the Civil War trashed Russia's economy), it will have the same problem of trying to set up a viable White government the Allies did.

It ain't gonna be easy.
 
To be honest, I haven't heard of that mod until now. And why so is it like "Kasierich"? I never mentioned anything about French and British syndicalists, the Hapsburg Empire, the USA in a civil war. I mostly really spoke about Mitteleruopa or Central Europe which is what this thread is about.

Well, for anyone who had heard of the mod, its kinda hard to not think about it when ME is mentioned. Later I shall find the map for you so you can see what we are talking about.
 
Sadly, Kaiserreich is extremely implausible (for gameplay reasons), so it should not be used as a yardstick.

Not saying it is plausible, but it is what alot of people think of. The whole thing grew out of another mod that was pretty much ASB. Though Kaiserreich isn't THAT bad.
 

Susano

Banned
Sadly, Kaiserreich is extremely implausible (for gameplay reasons), so it should not be used as a yardstick.

What has gameplay to do with plausibility? It seems to me that are two different categories.
And Ive yet only heard praise for it, what would be the implausibilities?
 
What has gameplay to do with plausibility? It seems to me that are two different categories.
And Ive yet only heard praise for it, what would be the implausibilities?
Sacrificing plausibility of history for balance in play, and such.
I'd say... the ACW stretches things a bit too far, the British Leftie Revolution has been criticised, the Bloody Baron's stature, altough it's only a little thing, the China setup has some problems...
 
Aside from the things LordInsane mentions (although I think von Ungern-Sternberg keeping power for over 20 years is impossible), syndicalism as communism with the labels filed off is pretty laughable.
The Ottoman Empire is still moribound and does not even own Libya, controlling it as a puppet instead. Their gains or Allies in the Caucasus or Central Asia are nonexistent; they will even let Russia gobble up all its surrounding countries there without breaking a sweat.
Then there's India: neatly carved up in three parts, which line up ideologically with the three major power blocks. Same with Spain (they just keep breaking off the country) or the USA.

It really adds up.
 
Well, I don't think anyone was suggesting that is actualy how it would turn out, just that this topic reminded them of it.
 
A lot of people are taking about Germany just rolling in during the Russian Civil war so as to keep Russia under German conrtol, but would there really be THAT much of a civil war? As far as I remember (This is from my semi-forgotten school days) the Whites were only supported by the Allied armies trying to keep Russia in the war, after the war ended and the Allies went home the White support collapsed Very quickly. If the US keeps strict neutrality then Britain would be far more focused on the Western Front and keeping the Germans as far away from Britain as possible to be able to send troops galavanting of to Archangel.

And since the Germans sent Lenin anyways, I'd think they wouldn't be worrying too much about Russia. They'd have the vassel Eastern European states and set up some new nationalistic ones ie Southern Russia, The Caucases, Crimea as buffers incase the Russians even think about trying to start something. And since the Russian army wouldn't likely be a threat to the now even stronger German one, I think the Germans would just leave the Russians to whatever mess they get themselves into. The only problem would be if Trotskey and his supporters win and try starting some revolutions in East Europe. In which case we'd also see a weaker Russian SFSR as the revolution would still be Idealist rather than the pragmatism of Stalin.

I think Germany would prop up Austria-Hungary so as to keep tabs on the Slavic balkin states who might want to make trouble as revenge for the war. Maybe even some sevre Austrian reprisals against Serbia/Slavs. Either another pogrom or an earlier Holocaust. The Balkans I think would become more subdued as both the Austrian's and the Ottomans carve it up and then sit tightly on the lid.

France would get massive reperations. Possibly lose a load of it's colonies (at leas the important wealthy ones) Alsace-Lorraine etc. I'm not too sure if they'd be so harsh on the army etc. Seeing themselves as now top-dog of Europe they might be arrogant enough to leave it at a reasonable size. France might descend to a new revolution against the seemingly weak government and hopeless defeat. It could either be a Left or Right wing depending on who gets the blame the politicians or the military, respectively. I dont think it'd be communist, but rather a slightly more extreme French Socialism.

Britain will stay Britain, aloof and seperate from the continent as always. The Royal Navy will protect them from anything severe apart from some neutrality treaties and probably favourable trade concessions to Germany. The opening of a few previously British-only markets to the Germans.

Oh! Italy might actually get it harder than France for breaking their treaty. With reperations and loss of colonies and shipping etc. Possibly a lot of territory to Austria. The loss of their few colonies to Germany and maybe cut backs in their fleet. The possibility of a German Mediterranian port...Altough that's a bit weird.

The US might be sitting there worrying slightly about this now powerful Germany and wondering if it should have gotten involved. Maybe a few feelers out to see if a League Of Nations-esque entity can be set up. But economic problems back home might cut that short.

Japan would be able to grab the territories it wanted anyways and so would stay relativly happy and apparently forgotten. The only trouble might be with new German colonies in China/SE Asia. Which might mean a still-Allied Japan, altough it could go either way.

But anyways for a post that was meant to be about Mitteleuropa, back to a question in the OP, I think the New German Empire would be economically powerful but not elightened. I think the enlightenment of the 20's/30's will occur in Britain or the US as the Intellectuals flee the overpowering Germans and the anarchy in France. A second Scottish Enlightenment might happen ^^. As for what would occur later. The tensions might rise if the global collapse still happens, tenisons will rise up possibly in Italy, as the new extreme facist state out for revenge, coupled with the revolutionary France and nationalists in Eastern Europe, And maybe Japan in Asia striking at the German colonies. It'd be a bit of a hodge podge of Allies but it might work if the Germans are complacent and exhausted after the years of war followed by the Flu epidemic and the economic downturn. And if the word of the ethnic cleansing of the Balkans/East Europe gets out it might finally rouse the US out of it's neutrality albeit not the economic powerhouse it could have been but still strong. Could turn out with France and Italy as the power duo of Europe with a cold war with a more NW/SE split, a more Balkanised Eastern Europe, with possible Yugoslav analogues happening. And a strong but not ultimatly dominant States.Maybe vying for Power with Britain, Japan, France, Italy in the world after the Second Great War.

I'll shut up now. Sorry tangents ¬_¬ Also sorry for the wall of text on a basically-first post =/
 
Last edited:
Realistically, I do see Germany leaving the Russian Civil War to its own devises, if the Kaiser Offensive was a resounding success, its still a last role of the dice, Germany is economically kaput. I've read stories of Stormtroopers seizing Entente depots in 1918 and going virtually insane at sight of such vast resources abadoned to the enemy.

Bar economic dominion in the Lowlands, control in Mitteleuropa and maybe some colonial gains, I can't realistically see Germany getting much more from peace if we're talking a 1917/1918 POD, the RN's blockade is still going strong, Germany is on the verge of revolution. Granted such a success would dampen the 'Peace Faction' but it wouldn't stop the lack of needed resources.

Perhaps the Hindenburg/Ludendorff dictatorship would tighten control and actucally push Germany finally into total war.

ANYWAY...

So let's say Germany does win, ie keeps Mitteleuropa, forgetting everything else. The United Baltic Duchy might end up being a timebomb, while the Ukraine if anything would be a 1920s Vietnam. In such an ATL, the Soviets would never dare touch the Ukraine, meaning Red partisans would, as they had started to do by 1919-20, move into Nestor Manhcko's Anarchist orbit, possbily even the Green nationalists now that the Ukraine is just a German puppet. So you get either a Tito style guerilla left-wing Liberation Front or the Yugoslav three-way, with partisans fighting each other as much as the government.

Even so, Germany would'nt commit vast resoures for a while
 
Why would the Soviets win? Wouldn't the Germans do everything in their power to prevent a Soviet takeover, considering that they now occupied so many new territories in the region...

I could see Mitteleuropa being essentially extensions of the German state, where the laws and such are written exactly from the German originals. Likewise, German becomes the new lingua franca of Eastern Europe.

Well, what is the option? Germany would hardly support the White side in the Civil War, doing this would be to risk creating a resurgent Tsarist Russia, one that would eventually want to contest German hegemony in Eastern Europe.

I think Germany would indeed sit back and let the two sides duke it out: it would use the chaos in Russia to cement its own influence in the various more-or-less-dependant client states along the Russian rim. Germany could also egg Finland et. al. on to carve even more areas from the Russian carcass, in Karelia, Baltia, etc.

If the Bolsheviks can win the Civil War, they would be still weak for a long time and could be embargoed indefinitely by Germany and allies, conveniantly providing a good Communist boogeyman to keep in check both the European clients as well as Socialist and Social Democratic movements at home.

Actually, they'd rather have a Tsar. The Tsars could be reasoned with, ect. The Bolsheviks would've tried to start massive uprisings in both the puppet states and Germany herself. That couldn't be allowed. Germany would've immediatly quashed the Bolshevik uprising in European Russia regardless of the cost, and thereby, also getting another puppet dependent on Germany for survival.

The Germans deciding not to send that nice Mr Lenin to Russia through Finland in 1917 might help here... no Finland Station = no October Revolution, since before Lenin got involved even the Bolsheviks were quite willing to participate in Kerensky's Duma.
 
Top