What would it take for the HRE to fall earlier?

It may be from playing too much EUIII and the like, but what exactly would it take for the Holy Roman Empire to fall apart/stop existing? I'm mostly focused on if this were to happen during the 30 Years' War. I know that the nations around (and in it as well) the Empire would rather just have the throne instead of dismantling the Empire, but bear with me.

Let's say it falls apart due to a Dano-Franco-Swede-Commonwealth-ASB Airship fleet, :)rolleyes:) what would fill the void of power in Germany?
 
It may be from playing too much EUIII and the like, but what exactly would it take for the Holy Roman Empire to fall apart/stop existing? I'm mostly focused on if this were to happen during the 30 Years' War. I know that the nations around (and in it as well) the Empire would rather just have the throne instead of dismantling the Empire, but bear with me.

Let's say it falls apart due to a Dano-Franco-Swede-Commonwealth-ASB Airship fleet, :)rolleyes:) what would fill the void of power in Germany?

Exactly how are they dismantling it?

You'd need something beyond merely overthrowing the emperor and breaking the Habsburg power base to have much more than what OTL happened in the TYW.

I think you'd need something where the states that are nominally part of it decide to stop caring, too. Its not so much who fills the vacuum as who undermines the idea that there's anything there but quarreling princes.
 
Opps, I forgot to ask how would the HRE even be dismantled, my bad. So basically if anyone has ideas on either how the HRE could be destroyed or what a Germany without the HRE would like, I'd be glad to hear about it. I'm far from any good at specific bits of history, including this era, thus me being here. :)
 
Opps, I forgot to ask how would the HRE even be dismantled, my bad. So basically if anyone has ideas on either how the HRE could be destroyed or what a Germany without the HRE would like, I'd be glad to hear about it. I'm far from any good at specific bits of history, including this era, thus me being here. :)

The main thing I can think of is that if you tore apart the Imperial forces (defined as those who consider themselves such), overthrew the emperor, and there wasn't a replacement, you'd probably end it.

I'm not really sure what exactly keeps it counted as "real" at this point, so I'm not really sure I can answer.

Hope someone can, because the term is used - so there has to be something to break.
 
Having the Emperor die, combined with the Prince-Electors fighting each other could work. However, they'd eventually stop fighting, and could very well elect a new Emperor. Another thing that could happen is that two (or so) Emperors could be elected at the same time, one being Catholic, the other being Protestant.
 
Having the Emperor die, combined with the Prince-Electors fighting each other could work. However, they'd eventually stop fighting, and could very well elect a new Emperor. Another thing that could happen is that two (or so) Emperors could be elected at the same time, one being Catholic, the other being Protestant.

Yeah. You'd need something where any resulting deadlock (such as that, or the prince electors fighting amongst themselves) leaves a permanent break.
 
What would have to happen to make the majority of the ecclesiastical lands to be secularised? If I am not mistaken, even ecclesiastical lands in the Protestant areas was mostly left alone. Well, left alone in the sense the lands were not cut up to pieces amongst the neighboring Princes. I ask since I am (sadly) not a fan of the patch work look to Germany, and if the smaller ecclesiastical territories were given to the Princes, it would make the map look a bit better.

On a related note, I've been toying with the idea of an earlier mediatisation to occur. A friend suggested it could happen if the HRE was not around to de jure protect the states, is this true? If a mediatisation could occur, what would likely happen, a toned down version of what Napoleon did?
 
What would have to happen to make the majority of the ecclesiastical lands to be secularised? If I am not mistaken, even ecclesiastical lands in the Protestant areas was mostly left alone. Well, left alone in the sense the lands were not cut up to pieces amongst the neighboring Princes. I ask since I am (sadly) not a fan of the patch work look to Germany, and if the smaller ecclesiastical territories were given to the Princes, it would make the map look a bit better.

Someone strong enough to seize those lands and get away with it, basically.

On a related note, I've been toying with the idea of an earlier mediatisation to occur. A friend suggested it could happen if the HRE was not around to de jure protect the states, is this true? If a mediatisation could occur, what would likely happen, a toned down version of what Napoleon did?

I'm not sure, but I wouldn't rule it out at this point.
 
One would think that, should a particular prince/region break away and simply refuse outright to participate - and back it up militarily, then that might serve as an early divide. Could be that Saxony or somesuch tells the rest to bugger off and goes on about her business; should she be contested and defeat any Imperials set against them, then eventually they could become another Swiss Confederation more or less.

Say Saxony succeeds in busting up a few Imperial armies, and in the meantime takes a bit of Brandenburg for her troubles, maybe Wurzberg says "That's a good idea" and the Palatinate says "Hellz yeah!" You have enough having a change of opinion on the issue, and it'll implode anyway.
 
Someone strong enough to seize those lands and get away with it, basically.
Dang, I was thinking that as well, but that's so bland!

You forget that after 1648 the HRE was de facto dead. Only tradition kept it de jure 'alive'.
I'm well aware of this, I did say I was interested in this happening before 1648.

Say Saxony succeeds in busting up a few Imperial armies, and in the meantime takes a bit of Brandenburg for her troubles, maybe Wurzberg says "That's a good idea" and the Palatinate says "Hellz yeah!" You have enough having a change of opinion on the issue, and it'll implode anyway.
I have a soft spot for Saxony, but I don't think the Saxons would be foolish enough to pick on both the Imperials and Brandenburg, but yet another attempt at reunifying the Saxon duchies could happen. ;)
 
I'm starting to picture someone, yes, I think he's called the Lion of the North. ;)

As a side note, I wonder what Sweden would have done if Denmark wasn't crushed by Wallenstein. They'd certainly make strange bed fellows, at least during this era.
 
PhilippeO, from what's been discussed, the territorial consolidation could occur only after the HRE is gone. So the point that consolidation would cause the disbandment of the HRE seems silly. :)

If the HRE was axed, it'd only be a matter of time before someone starts to exert control over Germany, whether it being a German state or not I'm guessing. So should most of Germany be under someone's thumb they could go about declaring themselves the new HRE.
 
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