What would it take for Spain to generally not consider itself "European" after 1492?

So basically, what would it take for Spain to have a general attitude to the idea of it being "European" match that of the British, at least, or of the Russians, at most. What I mean by this, is that just as some Brits, and many Russians, don't consider themselves "European" for various reasons( feeling closer to former English Speaking Colonies, as in Britain's case, and a number of reasons for Russia), what would it take for Spain to have the same attitudes as those nations to the same subject. Furthermore, what would it take for Spain to embrace some of it's non-European heritage, at least on a superficial level? Like, what would lead to Spain embracing it's Arab heritage in the form of architecture and the arts? Have this happen by at least 2019 with a POD that is preferably after the loss of it's Latin American colonies.

I myself guess that a number of various events would have to happen for this to happen to Spain.
  1. Spain is able to reach a certain level of power/prosperity, that makes it feel superior to other European nations. Spain would have to be a great power that feels like it could go it mostly alone in the world, without needing help from the rest of Europe in the form of a political union of some sort like the European Union. Spain would need a larger military, population, and economy. It may need to absorb the rest of Iberia in order to feel more powerful and yet, also isolated. Maybe France and Italy being devastated could lead to it gaining lots of immigrants to grow it's population and economy, while also making it more relatively powerful and unique compared to it's neighbors. Maybe it also takes Corsica and Sardinia.
  2. It would have to find itself feeling more comfortable in a group of nations that are outside of Europe, so I guess a certain amount of Hispanophone nations would have to become about as rich and developed as Spain, so that way it mirrors Britain's relations with the Anglophone nations vs that of the rest of Europe. So basically, "As a Spaniard, I feel more at home at other Spanish Speaking countries such as Mexico, Colombia, etc, than I do in the rest of Europe, such as France or Italy. I mean I consume more culture from Mexico alone, than I do from the rest of Europe. etc."
  3. This Spain would probably have to see itself as being "Eurafrican" as Russia may see itself as being "Eurasian". This could probably come as a result of Spain having a very different political system than what is popular in this alt-Europe. Similar to Russia. It even has a semi-similar history in the sense that just as Russia was once ruled by the Mongols, which is often used as an excuse for it's "non-europeaness", Spain was once ruled by the Arabs, which would be it's excuse for being considered "non-European". Russia's unique architecture, which I think may cause others to make it as being "non-European", would be mirrored by Spain producing more of it's unique style at a more extreme level than otl.
Those are my ideas for now, what do you guys think would need to be done in order for this happen? Preferably the process begins after losing it's Latin American colonies.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
It's possible to have Spinards to identify with the New World colonial settlements and Empires if it is successful enough.

But there's no possibility they will identify with Arabs,North Africans,etc. In their eyes then,the Arabs and Moors were barbaric invaders who had occupied their ancestral land and that they had successfully Reconquered back. Not only that,there's no way they will identify with Muslim peoples because of them being heavily Christian. Catholicism,Romance languages,heritage would make it easy for them to identify with French,Italians,Portuguese,etc. Why would they want to identify with the Muslim North Africans unless they went in there too,conquered and converted them?
 
No Peninsular War and Spain gets really lucky in properly integrating its American Empire into a cohesive union, like Portugal's Estado Novo Spain builds (and ITTL succeeds) a "trans-atlantic" identity divorced solely from Europe.
 
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It's possible to have Spinards to identify with the New World colonial settlements and Empires if it is successful enough.

But there's no possibility they will identify with Arabs,North Africans,etc. In their eyes then,the Arabs and Moors were barbaric invaders who had occupied their ancestral land and that they had successfully Reconquered back. Not only that,there's no way they will identify with Muslim peoples because of them being heavily Christian. Catholicism,Romance languages,heritage would make it easy for them to identify with French,Italians,Portuguese,etc. Why would they want to identify with the Muslim North Africans unless they went in there too,conquered and converted them?
I mean, many Russians believe in Eurasianism, which puts Russia with Muslim and Buddhist steppe peoples as opposed to fellow Christians in Europe.
 
Have the zeal of the Reconquista die and turn into a secular move not tied to Catholicism-this means Ferdinand and Isabella are less likely to implement the "convert or die" thing, enabling the arabs and jews to retain cultural relevance. Probably the first step right there.
 
Have the zeal of the Reconquista die and turn into a secular move not tied to Catholicism-this means Ferdinand and Isabella are less likely to implement the "convert or die" thing, enabling the arabs and jews to retain cultural relevance. Probably the first step right there.
Pretty ASB as you need to totally chance the personalities of both Isabella and Ferdinand for doing that (and then you will most likely butterfly the Reconquista itself)
 
and then you will most likely butterfly the Reconquista itself)
Well, if we define the reconquista as the decades long process of expelling Moorish rule from Iberia, i think it's not unreasonable for a more culturally moderate end to it, seeing as before Ferdinand and Isabella, Iberia was actually a decent melting pot because of it- plus it's just smarter, more people means more taxes.
 
Well, if we define the reconquista as the decades long process of expelling Moorish rule from Iberia, i think it's not unreasonable for a more culturally moderate end to it, seeing as before Ferdinand and Isabella, Iberia was actually a decent melting pot because of it- plus it's just smarter, more people means more taxes.

It is not always the case and the way taxes are collected is different in past times than today. There was no for instance income tax and no real substantive sales tax. So the conception that a larger population generated more tax revenue by virtue is not true. Further, in places with large populaces, only portions of these were urban and or wealthy and thus had access to coinage, the rest of the rural populace were either dependent at least somewhat economically to wealthier families or groups.

The contingent minority populace also in comparatively recent periods, were deep enemies of the conquerors. It should be remembered how the Almohad treated the minorities within Iberia in its early periods, this then may be multiplied by little opposition from the local Iberian Muslim populace in regards to their expulsion, forced conversion and massacre at the hands of the Berber conquerors. In a sense, one may say this is a fundamental conflict to the detriment of one and advantage of another; at least post-Almohad.

As for fulfilling this post: a Carthaginian Iberia without Rome, is possibly the best place. Imagine a Carthage that loosely rules Iberia and maintains the Balearics and its African homelands. This could create a sort of Puno-Iberi-Celto-Berber-Luso civilizational continuum south of the Pyrenees. A mixture of Punic mercantile functions, religion and concepts embedded and mixed with the Iberian, Greek, Berber, Celtic and Lusitanian cultures.
 
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I mean, many Russians believe in Eurasianism, which puts Russia with Muslim and Buddhist steppe peoples as opposed to fellow Christians in Europe.

I don't think they IDENTIFY with those people, they believe that Russification of those people makes them equal and that a focus in that direction makes historical sense. It was the conundrum that Peter the later Great faced - a lot of his court viewed itself as focused Eastwards (i.e. where there had been recent conquest and expansion) but he wanted to focus Westwards to modern technology and ideas. Russians who have an Eastern agenda today have blended the two, and want to use Russification as a stepping stone to domination in Asia, as opposed to engagement in Europe
 
I've edited the title , so that there's more freedom, but as a general, pre-muslim Iberia at least, if you feel the need to go further back.
 
As for fulfilling this post: a Carthaginian Iberia without Rome, is possibly the best place. Imagine a Carthage that loosely rules Iberia and maintains the Balearics and it’s African homelands. This could create a sort of Puno-Iberi-Celto-Berber-Luso civilizational continuum south of the Pyrenees. A mixture of Punic mercantile functions, religion and concepts embedded and mixed with the Iberian, Greek, Berber, Celtic and Lusitanian cultures.
I feel like if you do this far, it makes the idea of a Western or European identity risk not even existing, and since Spain no longer exists, that kind of defeats the purpose. I'm looking for a Spain that's more similar to Russia/Britain, in that although they by most definitions are certainly European, a lot of people within those nations, and in Russia's case, a lot of people outside those nations don't really consider them European.

An example of where for what I am thinking of. If there was an Alt pan-European organization of sort, at best Spain would be a very reluctant member like OTL Britain, who's motivations for being so would be more or less the same reasons for why Britain is so Euroskeptic. At worst, it would be because they are considered to be something wholly different from the other European nations, like say they have a different political situation. It would be too easy to just have Spain remain fascist, so let's avoid that and have somehting else instead, in regards to the Spanish political situation. Perhaps they are the only democratic nation in a sea of authoritarian European nations. Perhaps they see the alt-EU as too conservative for their taste. Something like that. Maybe Spain's a really strong monarchy. Something like that.
 
So basically, what would it take for Spain to have a general attitude to the idea of it being "European" match that of the British, at least, or of the Russians, at most. What I mean by this, is that just as some Brits, and many Russians, don't consider themselves "European" for various reasons( feeling closer to former English Speaking Colonies, as in Britain's case, and a number of reasons for Russia), what would it take for Spain to have the same attitudes as those nations to the same subject. Furthermore, what would it take for Spain to embrace some of it's non-European heritage, at least on a superficial level? Like, what would lead to Spain embracing it's Arab heritage in the form of architecture and the arts? Have this happen by at least 2019 with a POD that is preferably after the loss of it's Latin American colonies.

I myself guess that a number of various events would have to happen for this to happen to Spain.
  1. Spain is able to reach a certain level of power/prosperity, that makes it feel superior to other European nations. Spain would have to be a great power that feels like it could go it mostly alone in the world, without needing help from the rest of Europe in the form of a political union of some sort like the European Union. Spain would need a larger military, population, and economy. It may need to absorb the rest of Iberia in order to feel more powerful and yet, also isolated. Maybe France and Italy being devastated could lead to it gaining lots of immigrants to grow it's population and economy, while also making it more relatively powerful and unique compared to it's neighbors. Maybe it also takes Corsica and Sardinia.
  2. It would have to find itself feeling more comfortable in a group of nations that are outside of Europe, so I guess a certain amount of Hispanophone nations would have to become about as rich and developed as Spain, so that way it mirrors Britain's relations with the Anglophone nations vs that of the rest of Europe. So basically, "As a Spaniard, I feel more at home at other Spanish Speaking countries such as Mexico, Colombia, etc, than I do in the rest of Europe, such as France or Italy. I mean I consume more culture from Mexico alone, than I do from the rest of Europe. etc."
  3. This Spain would probably have to see itself as being "Eurafrican" as Russia may see itself as being "Eurasian". This could probably come as a result of Spain having a very different political system than what is popular in this alt-Europe. Similar to Russia. It even has a semi-similar history in the sense that just as Russia was once ruled by the Mongols, which is often used as an excuse for it's "non-europeaness", Spain was once ruled by the Arabs, which would be it's excuse for being considered "non-European". Russia's unique architecture, which I think may cause others to make it as being "non-European", would be mirrored by Spain producing more of it's unique style at a more extreme level than otl.
Those are my ideas for now, what do you guys think would need to be done in order for this happen? Preferably the process begins after losing it's Latin American colonies.
Maybe if the rest of Catholic European countries fall to Protestant / Anglican heretics.
 
So basically, what would it take for Spain to have a general attitude to the idea of it being "European" match that of the British, at least, or of the Russians, at most. What I mean by this, is that just as some Brits, and many Russians, don't consider themselves "European" for various reasons( feeling closer to former English Speaking Colonies, as in Britain's case, and a number of reasons for Russia), what would it take for Spain to have the same attitudes as those nations to the same subject.

A good start might be keeping Spain more detached from conflicts in the rest of Europe (kind of like a larger, more colonisation-oriented Switzerland), and also preventing any dynastic unions with extra-Iberian countries. Basically the less politically involved Spain is in the rest of Europe, the more likely it is to look on the rest of the continent and say "Nope, nothing to do with me."
 
A good start might be keeping Spain more detached from conflicts in the rest of Europe (kind of like a larger, more colonisation-oriented Switzerland), and also preventing any dynastic unions with extra-Iberian countries. Basically the less politically involved Spain is in the rest of Europe, the more likely it is to look on the rest of the continent and say "Nope, nothing to do with me."
Strangely enough though, Spain seems to have already been pretty detached from "recent" European conflicts. More so than Britain and Russia, as they weren't involved at all in ww1 and were only a proxy front for ww2, but were pretty much neutral once the actual war began. Yeah, keeping them away from the Hapsburgs would be a good start. Where would be a good place for Spain to invest all that money though?
 
A powerful Andalusia would be closer to a "Eurafrican" state.

However, if you want Spain to really be it's own thing, you'd need a unified Iberian peninsula under either Spain or Portugal (most likely Spain dude to Portugal being close to England) and having this Iberian nation be utterly focused on the New World. Basically, keep everything north of the Pyrennese and have Spain occupied in America and you could easily get Spain to be the dog being wagged by the American tail.
 
Strangely enough though, Spain seems to have already been pretty detached from "recent" European conflicts. More so than Britain and Russia, as they weren't involved at all in ww1 and were only a proxy front for ww2, but were pretty much neutral once the actual war began. Yeah, keeping them away from the Hapsburgs would be a good start. Where would be a good place for Spain to invest all that money though?

Castile and Aragon however had already been involved in wider European affairs prior to Habsburg ascendancy. One recalls the Castilian-Aragonese interactions in the Western Schism, the Albigensian Crusade, the throne of Naples, etc.. Portugal too, consistently interacted when it came to the Papacy and English interests. The Papacy and Catholicism almost perpetuated pan-European interactions.
 
A powerful Andalusia would be closer to a "Eurafrican" state.

However, if you want Spain to really be it's own thing, you'd need a unified Iberian peninsula under either Spain or Portugal (most likely Spain dude to Portugal being close to England) and having this Iberian nation be utterly focused on the New World. Basically, keep everything north of the Pyrennese and have Spain occupied in America and you could easily get Spain to be the dog being wagged by the American tail.

I cannot imagine the Spanish (Castile did hold the entire region south of the Pyrenees at many points) remaining indifferent during the reformation.

1. Their Papal patron and origin of legitimacy in America would be endangered and will call upon their aid. If Spain has any type of obligatory mentality, they will join the call, especially if territorial promised gains.

2. Spain will not be able to allow the French to make gains indefinitely in the reformation. They will need to stop the French from conquests of Italy, which would in turn place their Mediterranean ports in Catalonia at danger. France too, with enough conquests, could destroy any continental basis for continued colonial ventures and their trade revenue that Spain acquired.

3. Assuming the Papacy is weak as is otl and none listens to the declaration regarding colonial land rights; France, England and whomever else simply compete. Spain cannot limit any war over colonies to only the Western Hemisphere, but will have to take the enemy in Europe to task. To do this, Spain would be required to seek aid from continental allies.

4. Spain as it is, to be focused on its colonial empire, will need continental partners to trade with. This inspires jealousy and competition, Spain will need to choose its partners and defeat those who seek to harm its partners, such as France or the Habsburg. These are wars too, Spain will likely lose, France is quite a large power with massive pools of manpower. Regarding the Habsburgs, the Habsburgs would be difficult to touch and they likely garner Italian and Papal support. Spain in turn has none; without good relations engendered by trade and diplomacy, who exactly does Spain trade with? The ottomans?

5. How could Spain stay out of an ottoman expansionism in the Mediterranean? Assuming Spain stays out of the contest between the Ottomans and Venice, Spain still must defend eventually Sicily, Sardinia, etc or risk losing markets to sell these colonial goods. The Papacy will also threaten to give France and England rights to America should Spain stay out of the Holy League, there is no way around Spain making some choice regarding the Ottoman threat. If Spain does help and win, then Spain becomes ‘defender of Europe’ in its mythos, how could that entity be separated from Europe?
 
If Iberia stayed Islamic, it would be seen by modern people the way Constantinople/Istanbul is: Geographically European, but not part of the West/Europe culturally or socially.
 
If Iberia stayed Islamic, it would be seen by modern people the way Constantinople/Istanbul is: Geographically European, but not part of the West/Europe culturally or socially.
This
The simplest way is to keep Iberia Muslim and thus culturally closer to North Africa than Europe.
 
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