What would it take for Native American civilizations to be on par with the Old World?

How is it that the myth of über technological Native Americans (see El Dorado and extraterrestrial Mesoamerican and Inca pyramids or extraterrestrial Nazca figures) can live side by side with the myth of Native American technological inferiority to Europe? It never made sense to me.

Because in some level both are true.

Tenochtitlan at the time of the European conquests have more than 300.000 people living, in the same epoch that the biggest European City Constantinople, have around 200.000 or Venetian with 120.000. For the Spanish that only know cities like Seville or Granada (40.000 and 70.000 respectively) these monstrosity of Cities were awe inspiring product of a obvious civilized society. the rich people, without trace of illness well feed, without pox mark, with all his teeth, with a weel developed irrgation systems are something from other world

And in the same time these guys don´t even use the wheel or have metallurgy apart of Gold, no copper, no bronze, no iron, and have barbaric rites like Human sacrifice and his priest make clothes with human hides, the mental dissonance is enormous.

The first impression is the long lasting

It´s more or less the same with the Incas, except for the human sacrifice(at lest the public brutal festivals) part and that the Incas have copper and bronze metallurgy
 

Maoistic

Banned
Because in some level both are true.

Tenochtitlan at the time of the European conquests have more than 300.000 people living, in the same epoch that the biggest European City Constantinople, have around 200.000 or Venetian with 120.000. For the Spanish that only know cities like Seville or Granada (40.000 and 70.000 respectively) these monstrosity of Cities were awe inspiring product of a obvious civilized society. the rich people, without trace of illness well feed, without pox mark, with all his teeth, with a weel developed irrgation systems are something from other world

And in the same time these guys don´t even use the wheel or have metallurgy apart of Gold, no copper, no bronze, no iron, and have barbaric rites like Human sacrifice and his priest make clothes with human hides, the mental dissonance is enormous.

The first impression is the long lasting

It´s more or less the same with the Incas, except for the human sacrifice(at lest the public brutal festivals) part and that the Incas have copper and bronze metallurgy

Honestly though, the latter seem to me to be attempts at downplaying out of the continuous praise they get. From El Dorado to the lost civilisation of Mu of the Theosophists to the ancient aliens of Ufologists to the bimonthly National Geographic article about Mayan technology, it seems to me that the constant downplaying by pointing out everything they lacked, no matter how innocuous (I've never thought there's anything inferior about lacking the wheel for instance) is in reaction to a perceived exaggeration of these civilisations (and granted, saying that extraterrestrials with FTL technology were the only ones capable of building the Teotihuacan pyramids or drawing the Nazca lines is exaggerating a lot, but then again, I in part prefer that to the other chorus that says even the ancient Egyptians were technologically superior to the Aztecs or Incas that faced the Spaniards, which is just laughable in my opinion).
 
Have the first wave of humans in North America bring horses with them, or save one of the local species from the great die-off of megafauna, say E. conversidens or one of the other smaller to mid-sized horses. For that matter, save some big bovid like the shrub-ox, or something else that's big and has a dominance hierarchy. You might actually end up better off with fewer humans initially crossing over to America - at least, a sufficiently small number that some strains of megafauna can survive the hunting long enough for some members of the species to figure out a) what a human is and b) how not to get killed by them.
 
I´m on the personal are fond on the idea of a Bison cavalry in as part of the mississippian-mesoamerican range cultures, imagine these guys in a full charge with a rider armed with Tepoztopilli spears or Macuahuitl sword-mace

Cortez wets himself, commences running unhinged towards coast.

"Where are my boats?!? Oh yeah, that's right, I burned them..."

*bison gored*
 

Kaze

Banned
El Dorado was terrible myth. A city of gold would naturally mean that there is either a massive gold mine near by or alchemy. The former or the latter would only bring misery to the natives. Besides which, gold is one of the world's worst building material. However, it does have its uses. A White man comes along with his guns ready to oppress, rape, and pillage - a native could point into the distance and say "If you want this useless gold stuff. There is more gold in that direction, go that way over the next mountain. (in some cases "Over the next mountain" is in the direction of a tribe that is their enemy. Or there is a next mountain after that.) " Then the native can hope the White man would go away and leave them the hell alone.

Now let us say ASB - there El Dorado Existed. A massive gold mine would be useless to the Natives. Alchemy to make base metals into gold on the other hand might be a double edged sword. Modern day chemists who trans base metals into gold discover to their shame that it costs more money than the gold is produced... and of course the fact that the gold is highly radioactive. So you have radioactive gold.
 
What about my idea of Song loyalists fleeing to the New World?

They have 400 years at most to develop from a small group of refugees. A group which for some reasons to strike it out into the complete unknown, sailing past barbarian tribe after barbarian tribe in seas prone to severe storms, before finding more barbarian tribes and then deciding that these are the barbarian tribes they want to settle around. They do this instead of going the obvious route and fleeing to Japan (like plenty of Chinese aristocrats had done in the past), the Philippines, Indonesia, somewhere else in Southeast Asia, somewhere in India, almost anywhere would make more sense than going to the Americas.

And then you have the matter that all these crops and animals will need to diffuse in 400 years before Europeans are firmly established in the New World (or aren't, but are in regular contact), across one of the highest and longest mountain chains in the world. Animals (horses obviously) would definitely be easier since they fit the lifestyle of the majority of the indigenous peoples, but crops? I doubt it.
 
I don't think it has either been debunked nor confirmed, but it does make some sense; while, the climate bands don't necessarily stop the integration of the American complex but rather slow it down. Take for example corn, which did reach as far as the Great Lakes even though its wild variant (teosinte) was first domesticated in southern Mexico.
For corn to grow in the Great Lakes region, not only did it have to adapt to different weather conditions and a shorter growing season, but also to wildly different day lengths than it evolved in. Mesoamerican and equatorial varieties of corn don't flower until the days are 12 hours long or less - something that doesn't occur in northern North America until far too late in the growing season for seed to mature. This meant that corn didn't become an important crop in precolumbian North America until fairly recently on top of the already late domestication date (roughly 8,700 years ago compared to 12,000 for wheat and rice). Potatoes and lima beans share the same day length sensitivity and didn't make it north of Mesoamerica until the Europeans came. Other crops like lupine and quinoa didn't make it out of the Andes at all.

Nearly all of the plants domesticated in the Americas are from regions with year-round or summer rainfall, which meant that none of the American crops were suitable for winter-rainfall regions like California and Chile. Short of cultures in those areas developing their own agriculture from scratch, they would likely remain hunter-gatherers until people from the Old World showed up with a Mediterranean crop package.
 
the rich people, without trace of illness well feed, without pox mark, with all his teeth, with a weel developed irrgation systems are something from other world

They were largely incorrect, though, weren't they? Actual modern archaeology suggests that Europeans were on average healthier, lived longer, and their agricultural package was miles more adaptable. The first impression was dramatic but, well, basically wrong; as wrong as the Mexicans' first impression of the Spanish being a yellow-haired people.

I also really doubt that the average sailor or infantryman in Cortez' expedition was able to accurately compare populations of Sevilla and Tenochtitlan, really.
 
For corn to grow in the Great Lakes region, not only did it have to adapt to different weather conditions and a shorter growing season, but also to wildly different day lengths than it evolved in. Mesoamerican and equatorial varieties of corn don't flower until the days are 12 hours long or less - something that doesn't occur in northern North America until far too late in the growing season for seed to mature. This meant that corn didn't become an important crop in precolumbian North America until fairly recently on top of the already late domestication date (roughly 8,700 years ago compared to 12,000 for wheat and rice). Potatoes and lima beans share the same day length sensitivity and didn't make it north of Mesoamerica until the Europeans came. Other crops like lupine and quinoa didn't make it out of the Andes at all.

Nearly all of the plants domesticated in the Americas are from regions with year-round or summer rainfall, which meant that none of the American crops were suitable for winter-rainfall regions like California and Chile. Short of cultures in those areas developing their own agriculture from scratch, they would likely remain hunter-gatherers until people from the Old World showed up with a Mediterranean crop package.

None of the crops: corn, bean, squash, potato, quinoa and lupine were suited for winter rainfall regions?
 
None of the crops: corn, bean, squash, potato, quinoa and lupine were suited for winter rainfall regions?
Corn, squash, and beans cannot be grown without irrigation in areas without summer rainfall. Even tepary beans, the most drought tolerant of the legumes, didn't spread west from the desert Southwest. Of course there were other factors at play besides lack of adaptable crops. As for the Andean crops (potatoes*, quinoa, lupine, etc), they were bred in what are essentially tropical highlands and are characterized by nonexistent to mild frost tolerance, sensitivity to day length, and dislike for high temperatures. This essentially limits cultivation to the coastal parts of California, at least until more tolerant cultivars can be developed. While some of the Andean crops, mostly those from lower altitudes, can and do grow in parts of the Mexican highlands, short of the Incas sailing to California, there's just too much inhospitable terrain between the Andes and coastal California for those crops to be spread by diffusion through neighboring cultures. These three crops also have substantial levels of toxic antifeeding compounds that, while easily removed through processing, may have contributed to their lack of adoption outside of the Andes.

The biggest problem with growing these crops in a North American Mediterranean climate is that water availability and optimal growth conditions occur during the fall and winter when days are short. This means that the plants are being triggered to mature and flower just as they are beginning to grow before they have developed enough biomass to support seed or tuber production. Meanwhile, these foreign, poorly adapted crops would have to compete as a food source with some of the richest, most productive places on earth for hunting and gathering.

Additionally, many early potato varieties had two traits that made them less than ideal for agriculture: indeterminate growth and short or nonexistent tuber dormancy. Indeterminate growth means that the plants grow constantly, setting a few tubers here and there throughout the year. Not problematic if you live in a climate that is essentially the same year round but the lack of one big harvest makes indeterminate growth undesirable in less temperate climates. Likewise, tuber dormancy is essential if you will be forced to store tubers for any length of time whether for planting or as a food reserve. Andean cultures got around this by drying their potatoes as a preservation method and the climate there allows for instant replanting of tubers without needing to store them. In a Mediterranean climate, you would need the tubers to be able to survive being stored through the summer. Lupines are also indeterminate and by themselves do not make a great staple crop since they are more of a protein source rather than carbohydrate. Except for some newly bred varieties, quinoa isn't adapted to low altitudes at all.

*Modern potatoes are much more adaptable and less toxic, but they have gone through centuries of further selection.
 
Ok so I doubt this will meet the original posters goal but lets make the norse colony a little bigger 500 to 800 people they have enough horses cattle and pigs to escape and go feral the colony still fails but the norse get integrated into the Native americans this results in a norse native hybrid culture with knowledge of iron working the wheel and domesticated animals as well as shipbuilding. I realize its most likely asb and appoligise for the text quality im currently holding a squirming 6 month old.
 

Pellaeon

Banned
I think the overwhelming issue is and greatest tragedy was that is wasn't European military might, technological or cultural advantages, or anything inherent in the Europeans besides the tiny creatures they brought with them.

Smallpox in relation to the European conquest was like a flaming sword shattering all resistance and possible resistance in its path leaving the continent open for European settlement.

Unintentionally by making the trip the Europeans unleashed probably the most successful biological warfare campaign in human history. Far more natives died coughing of smallpox, and other diseases than died at the hands of European rifles, horses, and swords.

In some places the Amerindians put up admirable resistance-the chichimeca for example fought the Spanish for forty years and could not be subdued militarily, a Mayan city state held out until 1693 or something, the American Indians fought until the turn of the 20th century, and the pampas Indians fought contemporaneously to them for a long long time.

The natives quite simply without biological immunity could not resist European expansion-that cost them manpower, leadership, their very physical and social and psychological strength was shattered by a weapon the Europeans carried over but themselves did not understand.

If some ASB gave them immunity to smallpox, malaria, and the other myriad diseases they encountered I believe the Americas would remain majority Amerindian to this day.

Or if said ASB froze time for six thousand years in the old world-allowing the Indians a longer chance to play catch up. Because the Europeans did have a technological advantage that only grew over time. The Indians needed thousands of years to reach European levels of technology. Delaying colonization by a century or two would not have changed the fundamental outcome.

Even if the Amerindians say around 1200 AD got access to pigs and chickens-improving their diet and introducing the pathogens-it would not have saved them perhaps bought them more time but it would not have saved them. The Tarascans, Inca, Aztec, and Huastec starting the transition to bronze would not have helped them-perhaps increased European casualties slightly but even if you delay colonization for a few centuries allowing some of the Indians on the verge of transitioning to bronze to reach that point-it would have only delayed the inevitable.

Perhaps a more diverse gene pool or earlier arrival and settlement by tens of thousands of years would have evened the gap.

Honestly the outcome of the European arrival was foregone barring divine, extraterrestrial, or ASB intervention.
 
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Zachariah

Banned
I think the overwhelming issue is and greatest tragedy was that is wasn't European military might, technological or cultural advantages, or anything inherent in the Europeans besides the tiny creatures they brought with them.

Smallpox in relation to the European conquest was like a flaming sword shattering all resistance and possible resistance in its path leaving the continent open for European settlement.

Unintentionally by making the trip the Europeans unleashed probably the most successful biological warfare campaign in human history. Far more natives died coughing of smallpox, and other diseases than died at the hands of European rifles, horses, and swords.

In some places the Amerindians put up admirable resistance-the chichimeca for example fought the Spanish for forty years and could not be subdued militarily, a Mayan city state held out until 1693 or something, the American Indians fought until the turn of the 20th century, and the pampas Indians fought contemporaneously to them for a long long time.

The natives quite simply without biological immunity could not resist European expansion-that cost them manpower, leadership, their very physical and social and psychological strength was shattered by a weapon the Europeans carried over but themselves did not understand.

If some ASB gave them immunity to smallpox, malaria, and the other myriad diseases they encountered I believe the Americas would remain majority Amerindian to this day.

Or if said ASB froze time for six thousand years in the old world-allowing the Indians a longer chance to play catch up. Because the Europeans did have a technological advantage that only grew over time. The Indians needed thousands of years to reach European levels of technology. Delaying colonization by a century or two would not have changed the fundamental outcome.

Even if the Amerindians say around 1200 AD got access to pigs and chickens-improving their diet and introducing the pathogens-it would not have saved them perhaps bought them more time but it would not have saved them. The Tarascans, Inca, Aztec, and Huastec starting the transition to bronze would not have helped them-perhaps increased European casualties slightly but even if you delay colonization for a few centuries allowing some of the Indians on the verge of transitioning to bronze to reach that point-it would have only delayed the inevitable.

Perhaps a more diverse gene pool or earlier arrival and settlement by tens of thousands of years would have evened the gap.

Honestly the outcome of the European arrival was foregone barring divine, extraterrestrial, or ASB intervention.
How about if these diseases, such as smallpox, found their way to the Americas via a trans-pacific trade route far earlier after they emerged, in a similar time-frame or shortly after their arrival in Japan? Biological immunity can be acquired the hard way; it just requires time for the population to rebound from the epidemics. No ASBs required, any more than they were required for the Japanese to survive contact with the Europeans. IMHO, the easiest way to have Native American civilizations which are on a par with those of the Old World, is to have at least one which spans both continents, and which essentially IS a part of the Old World, to a similar degree that the civilizations of Japan, the Philippines, and the Indonesian archipelago were Old World civilizations. The best candidate for this is probably an ATL variant of the Haida in my opinion; and an early establishment of the Maritime Fur Trade would also see significant migrant transfusions in the same way that establishing trade links with China did in Japan and across Maritime South-East Asia, which would serve to increase the size of their gene pool and boost their biological immunity levels in much the same manner as it did for the Yayoi Japanese. Not to mention that they're located pretty much exactly where you'd most want to be, in the Americas, to have the best chance of holding out against the Europeans' conquest- essentially, up in the far north-western corner of the Americas, spanning the Bering Strait, they'd be last on the menu, and thus the candidate with the most time to develop and to counter the European threat. Especially if they maintain control over Kamchatka Krai and Chutotka by either averting the split with, or re-assilimilating, the Koryaks and Chukchis, and manage to hold the Russians at bay.

Also worth mentioning- OTL's Thule people are/were a migrant group of colonial settlers who originated in this same region of Coastal Alaska, initially expanding westwards and southwards to the Aleutian Islands between 900 and 1100CE, before suddenly deciding to end their expansion in that direction, abandoning the Bering Strait, and turning back to expand in a north-easterly direction instead, where they displaced the Dorset culture and became the progenitors of the Inuits. And according to the Norse accounts of the Skraelings upon their arrival in Greenland, there wasn't that big a gap between them- the Thule had already entered the Iron Age in the 8th century CE, were the first (and only) Native American civilization who developed ironworking, and had already been smelting copper long before that. So then, what if the Thule expansion hadn't reversed its course to focus all of its efforts upon colonizing the Beaufort Sea, the Canadian archipelago and Greenland? What if the Thule had consolidated its control over the Bering Sea instead (or as well), and continued its colonial expansion south-westwards, all the way along the Kuril Islands from the Kamchatka Peninsula, until it reaches Hokkaido, in a similar time frame to when it reached Greenland IOTL (circa 1300CE)? In doing so, through contact and trade with Japanese, Koreans, Dauri and Chinese, they could easily pick up more advanced technologies, as well as domesticates like pigs, horses and cows; and as perhaps the most invasion-proofed region in the world, they'd stand a much better chance of holding out against the Europeans into the modern post-colonial era. And just like Greenland IOTL, the entirety of the territories under their control- Alaska, along with the Kamchatka Peninsula, British Columbia, the Kuril Islands and perhaps even Hokkaido- could all plausibly be majority 'Inuit', majority Native American, by the present day.
 

Infinity

Banned
According to Christopher Columbus, there was a 96 foot canoe in Jamaica which was used for trade. It's also implied in the book that the trade was primarily with South America. Furthermore, Columbus notes that the Jamaicans seemed more advanced than other natives in terms of weaponry.

So the question is, what made these people special? Might this technology have existed elsewhere, say in South America? Similarly, how likely is it that ocean class canoes had recently been crafted? Seems likely they had existed a millennium or two earlier.

What's to stop a culture from developing in the southern gulf of Mexico similar to the Maori? It seems they already were similar, only that the Jamaicans didn't travel as long of distances.

Lastly, there is a parallel between Jamaica and Crete. Jamaica is more than half the size of Crete and similar in shape. The distance of Jamaica to Cuba is only slightly more than double the distance of Crete to mainland Greece. Both horizontal islands are insulated from attack, and at one time were military superior to their closest neighbors. Although, Jamaica is somewhat warmer than Crete, both climates can be described as comfortable.

Therefore, Jamaica (and possibly the northern coast of South America) can be the staging ground of sea faring comparable to the Minoans and the Maori. Note, the Minoans went as far as England to obtain tin.

More to the point, could the Americans have crossed the Atlantic? Probably not, because there isn't enough land to rest and acquire supplies at. Yet, it's worth a try.
 

Pellaeon

Banned
I think seafaring contact and trade between the Caribbean, northern South America and mesoamerica existed to be sure.

And it certainly would have been been beneficial for all the party's involved.

It would not have stopped European conquest and perhaps may have even worsened it-give the spread of disease.
 

Zachariah

Banned
According to Christopher Columbus, there was a 96 foot canoe in Jamaica which was used for trade. It's also implied in the book that the trade was primarily with South America. Furthermore, Columbus notes that the Jamaicans seemed more advanced than other natives in terms of weaponry.

So the question is, what made these people special? Might this technology have existed elsewhere, say in South America? Similarly, how likely is it that ocean class canoes had recently been crafted? Seems likely they had existed a millennium or two earlier.

What's to stop a culture from developing in the southern gulf of Mexico similar to the Maori? It seems they already were similar, only that the Jamaicans didn't travel as long of distances.

Lastly, there is a parallel between Jamaica and Crete. Jamaica is more than half the size of Crete and similar in shape. The distance of Jamaica to Cuba is only slightly more than double the distance of Crete to mainland Greece. Both horizontal islands are insulated from attack, and at one time were military superior to their closest neighbors. Although, Jamaica is somewhat warmer than Crete, both climates can be described as comfortable.

Therefore, Jamaica (and possibly the northern coast of South America) can be the staging ground of sea faring comparable to the Minoans and the Maori. Note, the Minoans went as far as England to obtain tin.

More to the point, could the Americans have crossed the Atlantic? Probably not, because there isn't enough land to rest and acquire supplies at. Yet, it's worth a try.
The main difference between the Taino of the Caribbean, and the Maori of New Zealand, was that the Taino appear to have been a strictly pacifistic culture which rigidly avoided warfare, far closer to the Moriori. in effect, the situation in the Caribbean IOTL at the time of Columbus' arrival was a role-reversal of the situation in the New Zealand archipelago at the time of the Europeans' arrival, with the pacifist Taino having the overwhelming majority, but being driven back by the cannibalistic warrior slave-raiding culture of the Caribs. The Caribbean's Maori-analogue civilization was the one after which the region's named, the Caribs. But they arose too late, and were interrupted by the arrival of the Europeans in mid-conquest, to devastating effect. So then, what if the Caribs had either begun their expansion from the Orinoco basin a century or two earlier, or if the Taino on one of the major islands, like Jamaica, had made the cultural transition to adopt a more warlike, less pacifist society? Even in these scenarios, the Europeans' devastating disease epidemics would probably be too much for them. But they could still be on a par with other contemporary civilizations in several regions of the Old World. And really, going back to the original question, lots of Amerindian civilizations were on a par with plenty of the contemporary civilizations of the Old World; they just weren't on a par with, or superior to, the Old World's greatest, most advanced contemporary civilizations.
 
With regards to smallpox immunity, as has been brought up in previous threads the best chance is the mild strain, variola minor becoming pandemic in the Americas.
 

Zachariah

Banned
I think seafaring contact and trade between the Caribbean, northern South America and mesoamerica existed to be sure.

And it certainly would have been been beneficial for all the party's involved.

It would not have stopped European conquest and perhaps may have even worsened it-give the spread of disease.
BTW, legitimate question mark- do post-contact mixed-race Native American civilizations, such as OTL's Garifuna, Maroons and Seminoles, count?
 
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