OK this is crazy but maybe getting polynesian don't stop navigating when they reach Rapa nui (around S. VI-VIII) and continue his navigation until reach the Galapagos(around 3.470 km- 2561 mi) Which are Closer than America Proper and Closer Than Papete, is posible that the colonization of Rapanui come from the polynesian colony of the Islands Pitcairn, but for he sake os this POD, we say that the Polynesian could Reach the Galapagos around X Century, in middle of the classic era of the americans civilizations, this regrettably will cause decimation of the galapagos fauna, but i digress, Ok with a Polynesian culture in the galapagos they are in perfect position to connect by Sea thes nazca, wari and moche cultures of peru , the mayan culture or their descendents,the mixtecas zapotecas, mexicas, in Mesoamerica,this because the connection by land is extremely difficult even now (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darién_Gap) an help to connect and make he civilizations more complex, and they bring Chickens and pigs, maye they could help in creating plagues and give enough plague treatment knowledge to the more complex cultures,with the knowledge of good boatbuilding and open waters navigation, we could see that the caribbean flourish as a information and trade highway as a more "open" mediterranean sea, with this we could maybe will see an early bronze age civilization emerge in time of the columbian exchange, it´s even posibble we get a literate society, the olmec and mayas have and alphabet but not the incas, the peruvian civilization have superior metallurgy than the mesoamerican civilizations, and a better Agricultural package (potato, amaranth, quinoa,kañiwa, tarwi, pajuro Beans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythrina_edulis / https://www.concienciatv.gob.ve/blog/conoce-chachafruto),Oxalis tuberosa, ollacos(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullucus) , mashwa(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum_tuberosum) , Maca(https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidium_meyenii), sweet potato,and domestic animals, llamas, alpacas. In mesoamerica we get the wheel, the three sisters sistem, cassava, the tomato, avocado,and turkeys as domesticated animal, and not much more as staples foods, be get more spices in mesoamerica, cacao, chiles, vanilla, maguey, and tropical fruits, so the trade is posible and desirable, plus the ideas and knowdelage trade as we see a good polynesian thalassocracy in america based around the galapagos and that could extend to the caribbean we get a more connected america and a america in better shape in time of the european contact, the gap are smaller between an early bronze civilization and europe than what we got in OTL
What would it take for Native American civilizations to be on par with the Old World?
- Thread starter ETGalaxy
- Start date
Almost certainly, but where would they get it from without causing massive butterflies? I think it's more realistic to try and see what happens if the Natives are given an extra 100 years.
Zachariah
Banned
I agree. So then, how would you rate my proposal to use an expanded and more centralized Haida Gwaii civilization, along with the establishment of the Maritime Fur Trade route by them 1000-500 years earlier than the Russians established it IOTL, as a potential means of facilitating this continuous connection with China (along with Japan and Korea)?
While people on this website seem to like to debunk Diamond, the broad strokes of immunities and lack of domesticates and climate bands seems to hold up pretty well. On the climate bands, it's not so much preclude as to 'make harder' and having the 'make harder' accumulate over 10,000 years.
What we need is--
A deeper gene pool. The NA gene pool is estimated to be descended from about 70 people. Double or trippleing that might make a difference. I think that's the single most important PoD. If Natives died at 'merely' 10 times the rate as Europeans rather than 28 times that might make a big difference.
More domesticates and hence a whole host of diseases that Europeans have no immunities to seems like a great idea. Lets wipe out most of humanity so civilization can be equal. Not what the OP had in mind I think, but it gets the job done.
And Columbian Mammoth Cavalry from whoever is the Aztec atl equivilent is because Mammoth Cavalry redefines the rule of cool which every atl civilization needs to respect.
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I´m on the personal are fond on the idea of a Bison cavalry in as part of the mississippian-mesoamerican range cultures, imagine these guys in a full charge with a rider armed with Tepoztopilli spears or Macuahuitl sword-mace (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Muybridge_Buffalo_galloping.gif) , plus they were pretty much in all north america (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_original_range_map.svg) so it´s not a special big stretch, that after their hypothetical domestication, that they could be keep in more southern latitudes
That would definitely help the natives, however, a lot would have to change before that could happen.
Song loyalists fleeing to the New World to escape the Yuan after hearing of tales of a land called "Fusang"?
Deeper Gene pool and more domesticates are good, better than giving them 100 years, for by 1492 European development was a lot faster than american. I like the Polynesian way for domesticates for South America. North America could have used more sustained Viking input (sheep, crops, iron).
Medical technology was a non-factor in terms of preventing disease until the late 19th century. If anything the First Nations probably had better 'technology' by virtue of the fact that they actually bathed semi-regularly.
I feel like Bison are too big to reliably domesticate. The first domesticated horses were, after all, pretty small animals that were only capable of pulling carts around.
Sure but i was more thinking in European Auroch as parallel domesticate, but my knowledge in the history of domestication, apart of the dog, it´s not profound
From what i understand aurochs were less temperamental than american bison are, though i could be wrong.
We can have some pretty badass camel cavalry being employed in the plains of North America if they are domesticated.
How do camels fare in mountainous terrain though? They may be adopted by the Mesoamericans.
The Camelidae family of South america are pretty well adapted to the Mountains, the Llama and Alpaca as domesticates and the Guanaco and Vicuña as his wild ancestors, but the wild and domesticate population are too small to be used as mount animals.
In theory they could but the Peruvian civilizations don´t use the Wheel and the mezoamerican Civilizations that know the wheel don´t have access to the animals, it´s really infuriating, that why I propose a Polynesian seafaring culture as a nodal focus for these two civilization centers
Bison are a very good idea. There's a titanic quantity (I think there were more bison than humans in North America at one point) and bison never went extinct so this scenario wouldn't be an ASB where some prehistoric animal would never die out (those are cool regardless of being an ASB). I think it would be really cool for a tribe in the Dakotas to domesticate the bison and become the Mongol Empire equivalent in the New World.
Maoistic
Banned
How is it that the myth of über technological Native Americans (see El Dorado and extraterrestrial Mesoamerican and Inca pyramids or extraterrestrial Nazca figures) can live side by side with the myth of Native American technological inferiority to Europe? It never made sense to me.
Tbh its kinda ASB to domesticate bison so early. Even with modern technology we're having a hard try at it. You think people hovering around stone age tech could do it? At best you can do something like they do with elephants, ie: its either not possible or practical to actually domesticise them, but the young can be caught and trained to be useful.