What would India's "Prussia" have been?

Well, Nepal got into trouble with China pre-EIC war, because of it habits of giving refuge to Tibetan criminals and political rivals, and a generally defiant attitude. The Tibetans weren't interested in conquest and the Chinese didn't care if the Nepalis expanded into India -- But China was more than willing to interfere if Tibet was being messed with.

I think the problem can be solved by having the Internal Politics of Nepal go differently than OTL. The Gurkha kings knew that the EIC was a greater threat to be dealt with, and that they needed to get on China's good side, but some political factions did not heed this and at time even asked the EIC for assistance against the Chinese.

EDIT: As for the Prussia analogue, I can add one more thing: Prussia Proper (not Brandenburg and later acquisitions) was outside the HRE. Nepal was outside the Mughal System entirely. In fact Nepalis can pull off a Brandenburg themselves by Royal Personal Union with a powerful Rajput King, as the founders of Nepal's dynasty were exiled Rajputs.

I don't know why I am getting evangelical about an expanded Nepal but hey, at least it's something different.
 
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Guys

Some interesting ideas with a Nepalese Prussia but a couple of problems I can see.

a) Nepal is mainly [and devoutly] Buddhist, and not sure how this would go down in the Hindu and Muslim mix in the sub-continent. Might work out as the Buddhists tend to be pretty tolerant but would mean that they really stay an alien ruling elite I suspect.

b) After the Anglo-Nepal war in ~1814 if I remember rightly relations were pretty good I believe between the two and Britain started recruiting Ghurkhas pretty soon afterwards. Also by this time the EIC is already the dominant power in the continent by a long way. Therefore I think we would need something earlier to prevent/curtail the company's power. This obviously can't involve direct influence by another European power in India else that either attracts more interest from London or simply replaces the EIC with some other European body.

May be too late but what if the Afghans after 3rd Patipat, or at least some of them, raid up into Nepal and incite a response. Possibly helps generate earlier or more complete reorganisation of the kingdom - not too sure of its history. Also it gets drawn down into the politics of the plains. Finds that by offering security in place of the broken Muhgals and disorganised Marahas it can make a lot of money in tribune/taxes and expands from there. [Sort of like the slightly later Sikh military development but without the bad relations between them and the Muslims]. Possibly the Nepalese/Ghurkhas are more moderate in their tax demands than the early company, and hence gain widespread support as an alternative. A couple of border clashes go their way and the policy of territorial expansion by the EIC becomes questioned by the governors in London. Then some political settlement which sees the EIC give up most territorial claims in return for security for its economic privileges and interests. This gains the kingdom good relations with Britain, which it can call on for technological and economic support. A new wave of Afghan or other raiders from the NE forces it to advance that way and that establishes it as the defender of the northern plains. Giving it both a border mission to keep its military well tuned and a reason for its rule to be accepted by the bulk of the population.

However, given that much power and the common Buddhist identity, it might then start clashing with China over Tibet and interests there.

Steve
 
Guys

Some interesting ideas with a Nepalese Prussia but a couple of problems I can see.

a) Nepal is mainly [and devoutly] Buddhist, and not sure how this would go down in the Hindu and Muslim mix in the sub-continent.

Nepal is mainly Hindu. There are a sizeable number of Buddhists but Nepalese Buddhism tends to be very syncretic with Hinduism.
 
Yeah, Nepal was and is pretty Hindu. According to Raj by Lawrence James the Gorkhali troops from pretty much every tribe had a warcry something like Jai Mahakali Ayo Gorkhali, which is something dealing with the Great Kali who wears a belt made out of human arms. Which by the way is awesome.

So yeah. I'm still going to have to go with the Pathans, especially under someone like Dost Muhammad who for some reason even the most corruptible and bribe loving of Pathans preferred to the British.
 
Hmm....

RCDUGGAN !!! WHERE ARE YOU ?


I'm here to save the day with my Nepal-conquering the world ASB power! :eek:


but seriously, I do think that Nepal would have a chance if it allied with the Mahratta and the Sikhs to drive out the British... I can see Nepal conquering Awadh (or at least the north parts), and the area east of Awadh and south of Nepal (Bihar IIRC), maybe even south to the Maratha holdings in Orissa.

but the problem is going to be holding on to this, with an illiterate population with no idea the area outside their valley even exists, and the addition of a large amount of Muslims into an almost entirely Hindu-Buddhist nation. The Indians in Awadh aren't going to like being dominated by a Hindi god-king, so I can see them revolting some time after Awadh falls to Nepal.

but the idea for a plausible Nepal wank has me very exited. :D
 
Yeah, Nepal was and is pretty Hindu. According to Raj by Lawrence James the Gorkhali troops from pretty much every tribe had a warcry something like Jai Mahakali Ayo Gorkhali, which is something dealing with the Great Kali who wears a belt made out of human arms. Which by the way is awesome.

"Victory to Great Kali- the Gurkhas are upon you!"
 
I'm here to save the day with my Nepal-conquering the world ASB power! :eek:


but seriously, I do think that Nepal would have a chance if it allied with the Mahratta and the Sikhs to drive out the British... I can see Nepal conquering Awadh (or at least the north parts), and the area east of Awadh and south of Nepal (Bihar IIRC), maybe even south to the Maratha holdings in Orissa.

but the problem is going to be holding on to this, with an illiterate population with no idea the area outside their valley even exists, and the addition of a large amount of Muslims into an almost entirely Hindu-Buddhist nation. The Indians in Awadh aren't going to like being dominated by a Hindi god-king, so I can see them revolting some time after Awadh falls to Nepal.

but the idea for a plausible Nepal wank has me very exited. :D


The Nepali aristocracy knew the situation on the subcontinent pretty well. They just didn't have the schools to bring the rest of the population to that level. Like I said earlier, Nepal can benefit from a "great man", who reforms the country. If Nepal wins the war, Bhimsen Thapa will become a legend even in his own time, and a result of less political intrigue against him, he is allowed to reform Nepal to an even greater level. This also butterflies out the Kot Massacre, so we can have better people running Nepal in TTL.
 

The Sandman

Banned
What would happen with the Sikhs in the Nepal scenario, though? Would they retain their independence, or maybe even attempt a little a bit of eastward expansion?
 
I'm back, hate me more.
Anyways, the idea sounds very interesting. Remember, however, that Prussia was a state that was way less typical German than the other states until the "Prussification" of Germany. It was also geographically located away from Germany (not by much, but it still counts), and that it started (and was) extremely small. Also, don't forget that Prussia was founded by Teutonic Knights and was militaristic.
Bengal, however, seems nice here. Still, it was closely aligned with Delhi, so I dunno.

Welcome back, CW. :)
 
What would happen with the Sikhs in the Nepal scenario, though? Would they retain their independence, or maybe even attempt a little a bit of eastward expansion?

in OTL the Sikhs defeated the Gurkhan empire in 1809 and drove them out of the area, so there could be some expansion there.

if Nepal doesn't lose the Gurkha war, it can hold on to all of the K-P-B Valley, Sikkim, Uttarakhand, eastern Himachal Pradesh, northern Awadh, and eastern Haryana, which is quite a sizeable little empire.

they could probably expand even more, into Tibet or Bhutan (makign sure to stay on Britain's good side.

of course, there's still the matter of religion. IIRC the Nepalis were pretty intolerant of Muslims, so in states like Awadh and Delhi, there will probably be some atrocities and rebellions.

EDIT: not sure if the Gurkhas had Awadh, maybe someone can correct me?
 
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Thande

Donor
EDIT: not sure if the Gurkhas had Awadh, maybe someone can correct me?

The Gurkhas did not have Oudh, no, though not for want of trying. The Oudhi army included many Mughal veterans, including a reformer whose name I forget, and of course they became a British protectorate as well.
 
that Nepal stuff is really interesting, but I have a question.

if Nepal wins (or avoids) the Gurkha War, would it still be called the Gurkhan* Empire, or would it be Nepal?






*or Gurkha, Gorkha, Gorkhan
 
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