What would have to happen to tone down Irish nationalism?

So, by the same logic, nobody within the USA who is [largely] of Native American ancestry should feel any loyalty to the USA?

If America still had very large number of people with Native American ancestry they might be just rebellious.
 
If the English had carried concerted efforts to wipe out the Irish by conducting soft or hard genocide, in the same manner as the Japan did with the Ainu on Hokkaido, then they'd have been able to do it easily- especially when you bear in mind that they (if we include the Normans) have at least 700 years longer to wipe out the Irish culture and way of life than the Japanese have needed to drive the Ainu to the verge of extinction. All you need to do is to change the Charter of Kilkenny, requiring Irish subjects as well as English subjects to speak English, follow English customs and abide by English law (instead of just applying the charter to English subjects as IOTL), and by the time you get to the Tudor conquest of Ireland, the Irish people are going to be just as assimilated as the Cornish people. So, easy fix- Just take the Cornish example, transplant it on Ireland, job done. Simples...

OTL it took the potato famine and massive emigration to stop Irish people.
speaking Irish.
Population of the island Ireland dropped from 8 million in 1840 to less than 3 million by the 1950s.
 
What happens if, for some reason, the cultivation of potatoes doesn't get spread into Ireland?

There would be a lot badly feed tent farmers. with the high price of grain due to corn laws it leave the tent farmers little money to buy expensive grain.
 
Last edited:
Call me crazy,but its..




Nigh Impossible.

Yes.
The Irishmen are fiercely nationalistic,and no laws could stop them.
At the same time I'm absolutely certain material concessions on brutal a part would mollify them a lot. Home rule Alone would probably mollify them.
 

Pangur

Donor
At the same time I'm absolutely certain material concessions on brutal a part would mollify them a lot. Home rule Alone would probably mollify them.

Way too little to late. I grant you that it would buy time At a guess the reaction to the high loss of live in ww1 would discredit the Home Rulers
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Good point - remember that by the 'teens, "national self-determination"

Way too little to late. I grant you that it would buy time At a guess the reaction to the high loss of live in ww1 would discredit the Home Rulers

Good point - remember that by the 'teens, "national self-determination" was pretty much the default, as per Wilson and a lot of other liberal internationalists.

I think the last real opportunity was Parnell and the Home Rule movement of the 1880s; given the relative success of Canada under Confederation (recognition and political acceptance of the two cultures within a single nation) I'd guess there was a chance to do the same in Ireland there.

Of course, the results when the British tried to impose it by force in South Africa at roughly the same time gives one an idea of how anything coming forward without widespread Irish (Catholic AND Protestant) support would go over.

An alliance between someone like Parnell and Gladstone is probably the most likely, although the time frames never quite were "perfect" in reality.

Best,
 
Last edited:
Way too little to late. I grant you that it would buy time At a guess the reaction to the high loss of live in ww1 would discredit the Home Rulers

Then post World War I the English follow through on promises of home rule, that way the high losses in World War I have a purpose and serve to help the Irish calm tensions.
 

SunDeep

Banned
Just wondering, what would have happened if an Irish Sea tunnel had been constructed when the concept was first proposed in 1890? Could it have helped to tone down Irish nationalism, facilitating greater unification with the rest of Great Britain than IOTL?
 
Just wondering, what would have happened if an Irish Sea tunnel had been constructed when the concept was first proposed in 1890? Could it have helped to tone down Irish nationalism, facilitating greater unification with the rest of Great Britain than IOTL?

It would bankrupt anyone trying to build it.
I do not think you could get fresh air in to it and rail gauge in Ireland is not standard gauge.
Change of gauge and electrification

One of the challenges for an Irish Sea tunnel could be the break of gauge between the 1,435 mm standard gauge in Britain and the 1,600 mm Irish broad gauge.[17][18] In other projects, break of gauge problems have been overcome by transshipment,[19] building new standard gauge lines, regauging part of the existing network, the use of variable gauge axles[20] and by the use of dual/mixed gauge tracks.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea_fixed_crossing
 
Just wondering, what would have happened if an Irish Sea tunnel had been constructed when the concept was first proposed in 1890? Could it have helped to tone down Irish nationalism, facilitating greater unification with the rest of Great Britain than IOTL?

If it's still not an economically viable project today even though both nations are wealthier (particularly Ireland) then I can't imagine it being viable in 1890. The engineering effort alone would be one of the greatest projects, even if you went for the shortest routes (which requires upgrades to Scotland as well) would risk antagonise the North/South if such a tunnel went to Ulster.

Knowing somebody that worked on some of the Channel Tunnel, his opinion would be not a chance in hell.
 
Then post World War I the English follow through on promises of home rule, that way the high losses in World War I have a purpose and serve to help the Irish calm tensions.

Post WW1 Ireland is already hurtling to the War of Independence, which kicked off in January 1919. Ireland is already deeply divided by post WW1 with the Home Rule party discredited and SF winning 73 seats in the 1918 election compared to 22 Unionists and 6 IPP. There's little chance of bridging that divide
 
Top