what would have been the outcome of WW1 with mexico as a central power

The corollary what if: What if Canada joins the Central Powers and declares war on the United States?

Canada as a belligerent against the UK? In the 1910's? Before the statute of Westminster? When foreign policy was still handled by the UK's government AFAIK? Canadians of the board forgive me if I am seriously misunderstanding the situation in Canada in the time, but this strikes me as even more implausible than Mexico invading the United States in the same period.
 
And just how is Germany going to get those arms to Pancho Villa? Zeppelins? :rolleyes:


Good point! A Zeppelin would add a cool 'Diesel Punk' angle, but I was thinking of a more mundane approach, say freighter ships going through the Panama Canal, offloading to smaller vessels off the West Coast of Mexico and up the Gulf of Baja - literally a back door route.
 
Mexico could never have defeated the US in open war and they knew it. They'd be fighting alone, they'd be divided, they'd be fighting an enemy stronger than they were on a nightmarishly large front, and they'd probably go bankrupt fighitng the war. All in all, Mexico knew that going to war against the US was suicidal and they didn't want to get flattened.
 
The corollary what if: What if Canada joins the Central Powers and declares war on the United States?

Hmm, cool idea, but we'd need a big pre -1900 POD for that, say a continuous state of hostility across the 49th Parallel since The War Of 1812.

Canadian society in WWI largely supported the war; there was less support for it within French-Canada; there were also increasing demands for a greater role for Canada & the other Dominions in the planning & command of the war, increasing as British inflexibility & incompetence in the war (especially under Douglas Haig), contrasting with brilliant 'colonials' like Arthur Currie, John Monash and their subordinate field officers.
 
I don't see the US taking any territory in a war with Mexico in 17-19. POTUS Wilson was against the whole idea.

Now if you move POD back to 1904 and TR doesn't agree to become a lame duck POTUS and he is reelected in 1912, and 16 I see US taking a big chunk of Mexico. Baja, the Northern States of Mexico and the Yucatan.

After a war with TR as POTUS isee bad things for the New Mexic terriotries. Most of the Mexcians would like run south and their would be a land rush. Racism would be even worst than OTL.
 
GO, I was trying to point out that I felt the OP post posited an unrealistic event--Mexico attacking the US was about as reasonable as Canada joining the CP and attacking the US.

Canada as a belligerent against the UK? In the 1910's? Before the statute of Westminster? When foreign policy was still handled by the UK's government AFAIK? Canadians of the board forgive me if I am seriously misunderstanding the situation in Canada in the time, but this strikes me as even more implausible than Mexico invading the United States in the same period.
 
People are assuming that Mexico would decalre war in order to defeat the US, and that 1916 US is the same is 1918 US. Perhaps Mexico declares war on the US to prove a point and give them licensce to openly fight the US, who were engaged in the Punitive Exepition at the time. A decalration of war may raise the stakes far higher than the US is prepared to pay in 1916-7, especially since the huge army expansion has only begun. I can imagine some desultory fighting before negotiations begin, since I doubt Mexico thinks it would be able to win and the US would want to make big gains in northern Mexico.
 
Mexico gets curb-stomped, and the U.S. gets Sonora, Chihuahua, and Sonora. Yucatan becomes an independent American puppet. The U.S. still gets an expeditionary force to France, so the Michel Offensive still fails, the Hundred Days' Offensive is still launched, and the war ends on schedule.
 
Good point! A Zeppelin would add a cool 'Diesel Punk' angle, but I was thinking of a more mundane approach, say freighter ships going through the Panama Canal, offloading to smaller vessels off the West Coast of Mexico and up the Gulf of Baja - literally a back door route.


Good. Sweet. Christ.

Freighter ships full of arms leaving Germany. During WW1. Crossing the North Sea. Through the Entente blockade. Crossing the Atlantic. Through the Entente blockade. Passing through the Panama Canal. Which is owned by the US. Delivering arms to Mexico. To be used against the US.

Good. Sweet. Christ.

Are you trolling? You must be trolling. I hope you're trolling, because the only other option which explains what you've written is much much worse.

Please say you're trolling.
 

loughery111

Banned
Good. Sweet. Christ.

Freighter ships full of arms leaving Germany. During WW1. Crossing the North Sea. Through the Entente blockade. Crossing the Atlantic. Through the Entente blockade. Passing through the Panama Canal. Which is owned by the US. Delivering arms to Mexico. To be used against the US.

Good. Sweet. Christ.

Are you trolling? You must be trolling. I hope you're trolling, because the only other option which explains what you've written is much much worse.

Please say you're trolling.

The latter half of this post is getting sigged.

EDIT: Motherf*cking character limit. Nevermind. :mad:
 
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Spur of the moment speculation - NOT trolling

Yes DL, just speculation. Please don't freak! I'm of the opinion, if there's a will there's a way, even through difficult obstacles.

If you were in the Kaiser's Intelligence in this scenario, and needed to get arms to Pancho Villa, by what methods would you attempt it it?

Thx loughery111
 
Yes DL, just speculation. Please don't freak! I'm of the opinion, if there's a will there's a way, even through difficult obstacles.

If you were in the Kaiser's Intelligence in this scenario, and needed to get arms to Pancho Villa, by what methods would you attempt it it?

Thx loughery111

Put it all in a barrel put the barrel in the ocean and hope it lands on a Mexican beach.
That will likely have more luck then hoping a German gun running boat makes it across the Atlantic unseen.
 
Please don't freak!


I didn't freak. Depending on whether your post was serious or not, I was either awed by your trolling skills or staggered by something else.

I'm of the opinion, if there's a will there's a way, even through difficult obstacles.

So, you were serious? I was staggered by something else then.

If you were in the Kaiser's Intelligence in this scenario, and needed to get arms to Pancho Villa, by what methods would you attempt it it?

Stop and think for a moment. In the OTL, Germany's foreign office proposed the anti-US alliance to Mexico via the infamous Zimmerman Telegram while making no absolutely preparations to ship either arms or money to Mexico.

Seeing that the people of the period who know much more about the situation than you or I ever will didn't even try to get arms to Mexico, what does their lack of action tell you about the chances of getting a militarily significant amount of arms to Pancho Villa?

Thx loughery111

Read his post again and think about whether you should be "thanking" him.
 
Put it all in a barrel put the barrel in the ocean and hope it lands on a Mexican beach.


I just had this mental picture of Pancho and his men clad in old time, striped, bathing costumes complete with inner tubes around their waists and sombreros on their heads splashing around in the surf off Matamoros dragging ashore hundreds of 55-gallon drums full of Mausers...

I guess this thread has been good for something. ;)
 
I just had this mental picture of Pancho and his men clad in old time, striped, bathing costumes complete with inner tubes around their waists and sombreros on their heads splashing around in the surf off Matamoros dragging ashore hundreds of 55-gallon drums full of Mausers...

I guess this thread has been good for something. ;)

Nah not a few hundred barrels, one giant barrel. It has to be easy to see by Pancho and his men.
It will be the S.S. Titan-Barrel.
No one will suspect anything.
 

Cook

Banned
Yes DL, just speculation. Please don't freak! I'm of the opinion, if there's a will there's a way, even through difficult obstacles.
Not really no; not when the Royal Navy had the German Fleet bottled up and the German merchant navy was either trapped in port or had been seized by the British or French.
If you were in the Kaiser's Intelligence in this scenario, and needed to get arms to Pancho Villa, by what methods would you attempt it it?
For starters Pancho Villa was not the Mexican Government, he was in rebellion against the Mexican Government so the best you can do for him is smuggling, which is going to be very limited and probably will not involve sufficient arms and ammunition to significantly improve his chances of toppling the government of Mexico let alone effect any change in his chances against the United States.
Armies take a lot of arms and shitloads of ammunition and other supplies. Which means lots of ships in lots of convoys making regular supply runs. Not something Germany had the capacity to do.
The best they could have offered the Mexican government (or whoever) would have been to send some military advisors. They’d have to travel in civilian clothes using false papers on Dutch ships and their only opportunity of returning to Germany would be the same way.
Hence my first comment that Mexico would receive less than the limited aid that Turkey received.

But... all they need to to is sneak one transport full of infantry in, right? They can leave it nearby for decades first. Oh wait, are we not playing Civ IV?
It was good enough for all the losers that payed money to watch ‘Tomorrow when the bullshit begins’.
 

Cook

Banned
People are assuming that Mexico would decalre war in order to defeat the US, and that 1916 US is the same is 1918 US. Perhaps Mexico declares war on the US to prove a point and give them licensce to openly fight the US, who were engaged in the Punitive Exepition at the time.

A punitive expedition against a rebel who was fighting the Mexican government as well. Declaring war on the US would have just given Perishing licence to repeat Winfield Scott’s drive on Mexico City with the full popular support of an outraged American public.
 
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