i would like to find out other peoples opinions on how would the outcome of WW1 differ if President Venustiano Carranza of mexico accepted the German request to Mexico in the Zimmermann Telegram. would the UK & France still defeat Germany with the U.S. stuck in a war on thier own border. if Germany won the European war would they have kept their promise to aid Mexico. & if Mexico won how would it control its occupied american territories
what would have been the outcome of WW1 with mexico as a central power
- Thread starter herricks
- Start date
Mexico was in the midst of civil war and in a state of anarchy- much too busy with its own problems at the time.
The Vulture
Banned
"Aw, how cute," the United States said as Mexico moronically flung itself into a second meat grinder.
from mexicos independence til the 1900s when wer they not in the civil war
Agreed, if some one made the Americans think Mexico was going to do something... well bye bye Mexico, I think Northern Mexico goes to the US (maybe Veracruz too) and maybe a puppet in Chiapas/Yucatán
Having the US steamroll over Mexico might give the woefully unprepared US Army some fighting experience that might prove beneficial in Europe.
When the French occupied them. That Hapsburg puppet sure did a good job of unifying the people: against him.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
USA declared war against Mexico and Mexican Rrebels
USA annexed Mexico and Mexican Rebels
The filthy peasants of Mexico are revolting against their rightful masters
Mexico declared independence from the USA
USA annexed Mexico
etc.
USA annexed Mexico and Mexican Rebels
The filthy peasants of Mexico are revolting against their rightful masters
Mexico declared independence from the USA
USA annexed Mexico
etc.
loughery111
Banned
The somewhat meager US Army of 1917 uses rolling over the northern half of Mexico as a working-up exercise for the two million-strong force it plans to send to Europe later in the year; At least Baja California and Sonora, probably Chihuahua too, are ceded to the United States, the Yucatan is turned into an independent state in American orbit, and the rest of the country is demilitarized and occupied for at least a few years. I doubt it delays the arrival of the main American forces in Europe long enough to change much of anything there.
To sum up: Splat.
To sum up: Splat.
How do you pull off a Mexico that is willing to fight a suicidal war against the United States in this period? I mean, this situation strikes me as highly unlikely even if the after affects are interesting. I wonder what the propaganda in this WWI be like. That is, how will the propagandists treat the Mexicans. I expect considerable racist overtones, but other than that I'm not sure. Also, will Mexicans be as hated as the Germans were? If so what impact will war era hostility have on the future of Mexican and American relations presuming Mexico isn't annexed outright/put into a protectorate of some type? If Mexico is at least partially annexed how will Americans deal with the influx of Mexicans who had been so condemned during the war? This is a very unlikely scenario, but the after effects could be interesting.
loughery111
Banned
Oh, there's almost no way in hell. The Mexican government has never been suicidal; even had they been unable to restrain people from raiding across the border, they would have never made enough noise about US responses to get them angry.
That's what I thought. I mean, I can't imagine the Mexican government would be stupid enough to think they could defeat the United States in 1917 in the midst of all their internal problems. The only way I can think of to actually have a Mexican-American war in the period is to have Wilson and Congress outright declare war on Mexico when the army goes in after Pancho Villa in 1916. Such an act might preclude American involvement in the Great War thanks to butterflies and a fear of over extension. Sure, such a situation isn't exactly plausible either, but it's considerably more likely than the Mexican Government deciding to commit national suicide for no apparent reason.
Cook
Banned
Never underestimate basic stupidity.
That said and accepting the scenario question, Germany had no way of aiding Mexico even if they had won the European land war, the Royal Navy would still have been in tact and the United States Navy would also have proven to be a bit of an obstacle, to say the least.
Mexico would have received less help than Turkey did.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Mexico was far from stable, and Mexicans were still involved in fighting each other at the time. Can't see them enter WW1.
Yep not plausible, but interesting and it could have happened in a slightly different way.
If Pancho Villa annoyed the US this much, the Mexican government would invite the US to send some help in removing the bandit.
That way the US would leave after a few months or years.
Pancho Villa & Plausible Deniability
I think that Glass Onion is onto something; with the U.S. declaring war & launching a full-scale invasion of northern Mexico to stop Pancho Villa.
Say the 'government' of Mexico did become a Central Power ally to have a counter-balance against excessive American influence over their country. The Central Power could be an effective ally only if they won in Europe, which would necessitate that the U.S. didn't join the war on the Allied side.
Not wanting to commit national suicide, the Central Power-allied Mexican government couldn't directly launch attacks across the Rio Grande; but, what if Germany armed and I mean really armed Pancho Villa and gave him a mandate to cause as much chaos/distraction as possible along the border.
The Mexican government denies responsibility, citing that Villa is a foreign-armed free agent, but would welcome American assistance in putting down this 'lawless brigand.' If Villa causes major damage and a few atrocities against American civilians, the public outcry would compel Woodrow Wilson to deal with the Mexican threat first.
With no U.S. troops in Europe, Germany's 1918 Spring Offensive is moderately successful; the Allied forces along the Western Front are cut off from one another; the British Expeditionary Force isn't defeated, but is held off north of the Somme River. In OTL, the front came within tens of kilometers within Paris, close enough for 3 German Heavy Railway Guns to bombard Paris, creating some damage, but much more panic; in this ATL, the Germans push the French forces to within 7 to 15 kilometers of the city.
Even more Railway Guns are able to bombard Paris and cause real damage and the start of a mass flight of civilians from the city; thousands mistakenly flee towards the eastern roads out of Paris & hamper the efforts of the retreating French forces. Allied civilian & military morale plummets and the German morale increases immensely. Even more importantly, German industrial production, which had been falling, actually increases somewhat (in OTL it kept on dropping.)
North of the Somme, Douglas Haig is simply out of his element - he always was, but now it's evident after he tries to force a doomed to fail breakout plan upon the other leaders of the British Expeditionary Force. Canada's commander, Arthur Currie & Australia's John Monash outright refuse and in a rage, Haig relieves them of duty. However, when the news is relayed to London, British P.M. Lloyd George does the unthinkable, the relieves Haig of his command of the British Expeditionary Force and appoints Currie as the new head, with Monash as his Chief Of Staff. (In OTL, Lloyd George was contemplating this move if the war dragged into 1919 - the sudden near-collapse of the Western Front causes him to act earlier.)
Currie & Monash can't act immediately however, as their forces badly need logistical and manpower reinforcements and passive resistance from British subordinate officers smarting at being under the command of two 'colonials,' one of them, Monash of Slavic-Jewish ancestry.
As 1918 progresses, French morale plummets even further, with the ceaseless bombardment of Paris, grown even more intense as German intelligence realizes the toll it is taking on French morale. The French attempt to push the Germans back in their own counter-offense, but it fails. By September 1918, war materiel from the former Eastern Front territories ceded by Russia in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk are finally starting to trickle into German industries; and even more importantly, a few more eastern territory occupation divisions are able to be move to the Western Front; a combination of many of the former Russian subjects feeling liberated by the Kaiser's forces and a steady flow of propaganda (mostly accurate), telling of the horrors of life under the Bolsheviks (plus a few massacres of anti-Kaiser activists and rebels) have all allowed a smooth occupation of the new eastern territories.
American troops start arriving in late October, but they are too little, too late. The British Expeditionary Force is still penned in north of the Somme, but is steadily being reinforced; the anti-war factions within British civilian and government sectors is getting louder and louder.
The Germans launch a Fall Offensive in late October 1918; Paris is entered and fierce street to street fighting erupts. The Germans are able to bring all of their artillery to bear on Paris and it is steadily pounded into ruin; several well-placed Railway Guns shells strike the Eiffel Tower badly damaging it; it completely collapses the next day and with it, the French will to fight; on November 11, 1918, The Kaiser's army takes Paris.
November 15, 1918: Currie and Monash launch the Somme Breakthrough. It begins with one of Currie's classic Creeping Barrage assaults, but at numerous locations along the Somme Front; German intelligence is unable to determine exactly where the breakout will occur and they know it WILL come - German officers who fought Currie at Vimy Ridge and at Passchendaele know the bombardment is merely the beginning of the storm. November 17 the British Expeditionary Force launches a combined tank, infantry and air assault on German defenses (OTL, John Monash was a proponent of the theory of what would become known as Blitzkrieg warfare; Arthur Currie perfected the tactic of the Creeping Barrage, and many tactics of modern warfare still used today.)
The Germans attempt to hold, but are badly mauled. By November 21, 1918 Currie & Monash are 30 kilometers north of Paris, when they are ordered from London to halt the offensive. Currie is furious, but obeys the order. Several factors have come into play: the anti-war movement in Britain has reached the point of huge public rallies and even strikes within crucial war materiel factories; intelligence has revealed that more German divisions have been diverted from the occupation of the eastern territories; news from the Admiralty has confirmed that shipping losses are becoming critical even with convoy protection and the new depth-charge weapon and that the French government has surrendered, accepting the Central Powers' terms.
The Armistice is signed on November 24, 1918; the Great War is over.
I think that Glass Onion is onto something; with the U.S. declaring war & launching a full-scale invasion of northern Mexico to stop Pancho Villa.
Say the 'government' of Mexico did become a Central Power ally to have a counter-balance against excessive American influence over their country. The Central Power could be an effective ally only if they won in Europe, which would necessitate that the U.S. didn't join the war on the Allied side.
Not wanting to commit national suicide, the Central Power-allied Mexican government couldn't directly launch attacks across the Rio Grande; but, what if Germany armed and I mean really armed Pancho Villa and gave him a mandate to cause as much chaos/distraction as possible along the border.
The Mexican government denies responsibility, citing that Villa is a foreign-armed free agent, but would welcome American assistance in putting down this 'lawless brigand.' If Villa causes major damage and a few atrocities against American civilians, the public outcry would compel Woodrow Wilson to deal with the Mexican threat first.
With no U.S. troops in Europe, Germany's 1918 Spring Offensive is moderately successful; the Allied forces along the Western Front are cut off from one another; the British Expeditionary Force isn't defeated, but is held off north of the Somme River. In OTL, the front came within tens of kilometers within Paris, close enough for 3 German Heavy Railway Guns to bombard Paris, creating some damage, but much more panic; in this ATL, the Germans push the French forces to within 7 to 15 kilometers of the city.
Even more Railway Guns are able to bombard Paris and cause real damage and the start of a mass flight of civilians from the city; thousands mistakenly flee towards the eastern roads out of Paris & hamper the efforts of the retreating French forces. Allied civilian & military morale plummets and the German morale increases immensely. Even more importantly, German industrial production, which had been falling, actually increases somewhat (in OTL it kept on dropping.)
North of the Somme, Douglas Haig is simply out of his element - he always was, but now it's evident after he tries to force a doomed to fail breakout plan upon the other leaders of the British Expeditionary Force. Canada's commander, Arthur Currie & Australia's John Monash outright refuse and in a rage, Haig relieves them of duty. However, when the news is relayed to London, British P.M. Lloyd George does the unthinkable, the relieves Haig of his command of the British Expeditionary Force and appoints Currie as the new head, with Monash as his Chief Of Staff. (In OTL, Lloyd George was contemplating this move if the war dragged into 1919 - the sudden near-collapse of the Western Front causes him to act earlier.)
Currie & Monash can't act immediately however, as their forces badly need logistical and manpower reinforcements and passive resistance from British subordinate officers smarting at being under the command of two 'colonials,' one of them, Monash of Slavic-Jewish ancestry.
As 1918 progresses, French morale plummets even further, with the ceaseless bombardment of Paris, grown even more intense as German intelligence realizes the toll it is taking on French morale. The French attempt to push the Germans back in their own counter-offense, but it fails. By September 1918, war materiel from the former Eastern Front territories ceded by Russia in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk are finally starting to trickle into German industries; and even more importantly, a few more eastern territory occupation divisions are able to be move to the Western Front; a combination of many of the former Russian subjects feeling liberated by the Kaiser's forces and a steady flow of propaganda (mostly accurate), telling of the horrors of life under the Bolsheviks (plus a few massacres of anti-Kaiser activists and rebels) have all allowed a smooth occupation of the new eastern territories.
American troops start arriving in late October, but they are too little, too late. The British Expeditionary Force is still penned in north of the Somme, but is steadily being reinforced; the anti-war factions within British civilian and government sectors is getting louder and louder.
The Germans launch a Fall Offensive in late October 1918; Paris is entered and fierce street to street fighting erupts. The Germans are able to bring all of their artillery to bear on Paris and it is steadily pounded into ruin; several well-placed Railway Guns shells strike the Eiffel Tower badly damaging it; it completely collapses the next day and with it, the French will to fight; on November 11, 1918, The Kaiser's army takes Paris.
November 15, 1918: Currie and Monash launch the Somme Breakthrough. It begins with one of Currie's classic Creeping Barrage assaults, but at numerous locations along the Somme Front; German intelligence is unable to determine exactly where the breakout will occur and they know it WILL come - German officers who fought Currie at Vimy Ridge and at Passchendaele know the bombardment is merely the beginning of the storm. November 17 the British Expeditionary Force launches a combined tank, infantry and air assault on German defenses (OTL, John Monash was a proponent of the theory of what would become known as Blitzkrieg warfare; Arthur Currie perfected the tactic of the Creeping Barrage, and many tactics of modern warfare still used today.)
The Germans attempt to hold, but are badly mauled. By November 21, 1918 Currie & Monash are 30 kilometers north of Paris, when they are ordered from London to halt the offensive. Currie is furious, but obeys the order. Several factors have come into play: the anti-war movement in Britain has reached the point of huge public rallies and even strikes within crucial war materiel factories; intelligence has revealed that more German divisions have been diverted from the occupation of the eastern territories; news from the Admiralty has confirmed that shipping losses are becoming critical even with convoy protection and the new depth-charge weapon and that the French government has surrendered, accepting the Central Powers' terms.
The Armistice is signed on November 24, 1918; the Great War is over.
loughery111
Banned
And just how is Germany going to get those arms to Pancho Villa? Zeppelins?
But... all they need to to is sneak one transport full of infantry in, right? They can leave it nearby for decades first. Oh wait, are we not playing Civ IV?