What would be the fate of the jews in a victorious ottoman empire?

Since 1882 there was a constant immigration of jews to ottoman palestine, if the central powers had won WWI, what would happens with the area? Would they eventually gain autonomy (like the autonomous jewish oblast in Russia)? Would the ottomans continue to allow the unlimited jewish immigration to palestine? And what if the ottoman empire still collapses in the future, could Israel become independent?

Ottoman_troops_and_Palestinians_in_Da'wud_Street,_Jerusalem,_1898.jpg
 

BlondieBC

Banned
No, they will not allow unlimited immigration. The probably will allow minor immigration, especially if the immigrants bring skills, need investment $$, or other benefits.
 
In a CP victorious scenario, you probably won't have an issue with massive Jewish immigration to Palestine. Prior to WWI the number of immigrants was relatively small, most European Jews were adequately assimilated/comfortable where they were or wanted to go to the USA perhaps Canada or even a couple of places in South America. The immigration laws of the early 20s in the USA will close that door for many, but absent the rise of fascism and antisemitism the push is much less than OTL. Of course no WWII as we know it with no holocaust means there won't be a large number of Jews converted to Zionism and also very anxious to leave where they are.

The Ottomans had no great place in their heart for the Arabs, yes they were Muslims but beyond that. After all, the Arabs in large numbers were happy to see the Ottomans go and fought for that - the power structure if the Ottoman Empire was Turkish. Ethnic Turks mostly but also those from other groups who made themselves Turks. The Ottomans did not see the Jews as a real threat like the did the Armenians and Greeks who lived in their borders.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I could see the Ottomans using some jewish immigration to palestine to play down the arabs and evolve the region economically (waht might lead to arab antisemitic uprisings later, but more on a small scale like local pogroms).

Beside that I could think they might 'funnel' jewish immigration into regions they would like (i.e. depopulated Armenia).

And as stated above, there would be much less immigrants at all over a longer period of time.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If Arab nationalism awakens as OTL, the Jews could be a useful too to redirect Arab anger against, but the Ottoman Empire won't allow unrestricted immigration.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
The Ottomans had no great place in their heart for the Arabs, yes they were Muslims but beyond that. After all, the Arabs in large numbers were happy to see the Ottomans go and fought for that - the power structure if the Ottoman Empire was Turkish. Ethnic Turks mostly but also those from other groups who made themselves Turks. The Ottomans did not see the Jews as a real threat like the did the Armenians and Greeks who lived in their borders.

It is a bit stronger than that. As an empire, the Ottomans would have seen a minority dependent on the empire as an assets. And minor local hostility of the Arabs is a plus. Beside the items mentioned in my earlier post, I can see the Ottomans encouraging migration to an area with somewhat questionable loyalty. For example, the Ottomans had issues with the Arabs near Maan (Jordan) and the associated mines and railroads. The Arabs tribesmen had a tendency to raid trains (think your typical American Western). Having up to 10,000 Jews living in the areas in towns would be beneficial, since the jewish loyalty would be clear. The real question is more "Would the Jews consider the east bank of the Jordan 'the Holy Land' ?" And would the potential profits of either a railroad or the mines be attractive to Jewish investors?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I could see the Ottomans using some jewish immigration to palestine to play down the arabs and evolve the region economically (waht might lead to arab antisemitic uprisings later, but more on a small scale like local pogroms).

Beside that I could think they might 'funnel' jewish immigration into regions they would like (i.e. depopulated Armenia).

And as stated above, there would be much less immigrants at all over a longer period of time.

Sure the Ottomans might try, but would Armenia be attractive to Jews? Why leave not so good land in Eastern Europe for even worse land in Asia Minor?
 
Zionism was especially based out of the USA, so it probably depends on whether the Ottoman Empire feels any need to placate American Zionist organisations. If the USA helps the survival of the Ottoman state, either through diplomatic actions or loans (I assume a Muslim state could accept loans?) then the Ottomans may be open to persuasion to greater immigration, because they can't read a history that has not happened yet and won't know where it might lead.

If not, then Zionism probably remains a largely American/high-brow thing and ordinary Jews would show no great inclination to try to move en masse to Palestine, especially since without financial backing the land they can buy up is the worst kind and the hardest to make a living on.

Without the Zionist focus on Palestine=Israel as a homeland, there is no real need for Jews as a people to migrate anywhere. In most of Western and Central Europe they are assimilated and successful populations, further East it depends but the pogroms in Imperial Russia were not because the Jews were seen as poor and downtrodden. Ottoman survival presumably means a Central Powers victory so we probably get an independent rump Poland, and some German influence in Russia, so there won't be mass expulsions and refugees fleeing for their lives.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Zionism was especially based out of the USA, so it probably depends on whether the Ottoman Empire feels any need to placate American Zionist organisations. If the USA helps the survival of the Ottoman state, either through diplomatic actions or loans (I assume a Muslim state could accept loans?) then the Ottomans may be open to persuasion to greater immigration, because they can't read a history that has not happened yet and won't know where it might lead.

The Ottoman Empire loved debt.
 
Zionism was NOT primarily a US based enterprise until after WWII. Zionism was officially begun in Europe by Herzl after the Dreyfus Affair when assimilation was called in to doubt as a viable alternative for Jews (this is political Zionism as opposed to the Messianic Zionism of the return to Israel when the Messiah comes). The vast majority of Jewish immigrants to Ottoman Palestine were from Europe, few if any from the USA (some who came OTL were mostly interwar like Golda Meir formerly of Milwaukee, WI). The vast majority of Jewish emigration from Europe at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th was to the USA.

American Zionist organizations were not in a position to have much political influence in the USA until after WWII and the Holocaust. Certainly not in the immediate WWI period. Remember in the early 1920s the USA passed new immigration laws which, among other things, used cut-off dates to exclude those countries which had sent most Jews to the USA. At the same time the Ivy League universities and many other universities instituted strict quotas for the number of Jews allowed to enroll no matter what their qualifications, and this extended to professional schools such as medical, dental, and law schools.

The "influence" of Jews on the US political process prior to WWI was at best local in areas with a large Jewish population, there was no national ear for Jewish concerns.
 
Zionism was especially based out of the USA, so it probably depends on whether the Ottoman Empire feels any need to placate American Zionist organisations.

There is another factor: The american entry in WWI. If the americans still join the entente but the central powers still wins the war at the end, I doubt the otties would want business with them
 
There is another factor: The american entry in WWI. If the americans still join the entente but the central powers still wins the war at the end, I doubt the otties would want business with them

Well the USA never actually declared war on the Ottomans, so its entirely possible business continues. This is assuming Germany doesn't go for round II of the continental system or anything.
 
The only way the USA gets in to WWI AND the Ottomans are still around is if they stay neutral. They were in trouble well before the USA jumped in, and if the USA does the same as TL the British and other allies will finish off the Ottomans like OTL. The only way the Ottoman Empire is around in 1920 is if the CP win, which means they win before the OTL US entry or at least before the USA sends many forces to Europe (if the French throw in the sponge the British will seek an accommodation and the USA certainly won't continue in this scenario), or if they stay neutral and therefore aren't sliced up as in OTL. Now their long term viability is in question, they do remain the "sick man of Europe" but that is a different story.
 
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