Baphomet
Banned
I wonder what coalition on land would stand a chance against the French? Austria? Its proven to be a French punching bag in the past. England? Would England risk landing troops on the continent?
What would be a good post-Napoleonic French wank pod?
- Thread starter Baphomet
- Start date
- Status
I wonder what coalition on land would stand a chance against the French? Austria? Its proven to be a French punching bag in the past. England? Would England risk landing troops on the continent?
Too far. Would likely anger the Germans, piss of the Russians and worry the Brits. No I think more likely they invade the Rhineland, forcing the Prussians to the table. Prussia is weakened, perhaps losing parts of if not all the Rhineland (to French client states), Austria is triumphant and reasserts itself in Germany, and German unification is, if not prevented outright, delayed for a few decades.
Baphomet
Banned
Wouldn't a German unifiction under Austria be more dangerous to France? I mean given the size of Austria-Hungary? Then again France is likely to keep Germany's industrial areas anyway like the Ruhr. That would make World War 1 sometime in the 1920s or 30s all the more interesting.
Austrian reassertion is not the same as unification. France would likely seek a way to balance Prussia and Austria in Germany. But I think German unification under Austria is basically impossible by this time.
First idea: Would a second Confederation of the Rhine count? We would need a hyper-aggressive Prussia in and after 1866 that manages to humiliate and estrange every German state it has fought in the German war. Anytime between 1867 and 1872 a war between Prussia and France erupts, the southern german states side with France. After Prussia is defeated, the South and West (basically what would be the old FRG in OTL) is reformed as federal CotR.
Second Idea: In 1848, the French republic maintains higher Influence and Popularity in Germany by *not* demanding the Rhine frontier. In the summer of 1848, uniting Germany without central and eastern Prussia and Austria unter French protection is seen as viable alternative.
Both ideas would lead to strengthened French influence in Europe, but without territorial expansion towards or beyond the Rhine.
Second Idea: In 1848, the French republic maintains higher Influence and Popularity in Germany by *not* demanding the Rhine frontier. In the summer of 1848, uniting Germany without central and eastern Prussia and Austria unter French protection is seen as viable alternative.
Both ideas would lead to strengthened French influence in Europe, but without territorial expansion towards or beyond the Rhine.
wolf_brother
Banned
France stops Prussian expansionism and guts Berlin's international prestige in '66, buys Luxemburg add nearly happened in '67-'68.
And ASB too boot.
No need. Literally all but two (incredibly minor) small German states sided with Austria in OTL; abolish those two states, curb Prussian influence, maybe tweak some more borders, and you've got yourself a (temporarily) disunited Germany.
Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
Franco-Prussian War happened in 1871. I believe that in OTL the southern German states sided with Prussia.
Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
In a few decades, Austria might try to unify Germany, as Prussia is seen as weakened and Austria stronger.
Isn't that technically not post-Napoleonic?
That and more stable French governments.
The former can be achieved by a more active French immigration policy.
They would not like to lose the Bavarian Palatine to France.
Austria was trying to reform and strengthen the German Confederation in 1863. Bismarck prevented it.
A victorious Austria could try it again and succeed against the opposition of the defeated and discredited Prussia.
Just like Bismarck's alliance system, it would not work in the mid- and long term, especially if Prussia loses certain territories.
The Mexican Empire is never formed. Say the US (Lincoln lives?) puts troops on the border quicker, making the ever nervy Napoleon III stick to the punitive expedition and bar sending guns to local conservatives, shelving his plans for the Americas. This allow France to save money, men and international standing plus no Maximilian being shot helps Austro-French relations.
Attention returned to Europe, Napoleon and Franz Joseph team up in 1866, the best possible time for stomping Prussia in terms of it being deemed a legitimate threat, having enough German states arranged against it and not being too powerful vis her continental rivals.
Let the Austrians do better in Bohemia, combined with the French marching through the Rhineland, aiding the likes of Hanover. Bismarck is sent packing and Wilhelm begs for peace.
West-Prussia becomes the Kingdom of Rhineland, perhaps under Maximilian (his connections to France might make him palatable for Paris, Vienna and the Germans)? Hanover gets some nibbles, France buys Luxembourg, and Austria gets Silesia.
All the German states (possibly sans Prussia) form a new loose Confederation which is effectively Rhineland, Hanover and Bavaria under Austrian protection maintaining a divided Germany in dynastic self-interest.
Napoleon III dies mid-1870s, Napoleon IV marries an Austrian princess and liberalises the government to a Prussian level, allowing semi-constitutional rule. Bring in a 'Universal France' immigration policy, which sees European immigration into France rise, combined with some (to our eyes sinister) natalist programmes the metropole has a few million more citizens by the 1920s. France gets a hand in the Rhineland tiller, aiding their domestic industry.
No Germany, France ends up running places like Togo and Cameroon. I imagine Russia cosies up to Prussia after 1866. All in all this leads to France maintaining 'favoured nation' status with Japan which leads to Paris and Tokyo working together in Korea, Formosa and Yunnan, leading to greater French involvement in China.
They avoid a costly war due to Britain being moderately friendly - they see the Austro-French Alliance and Zweikaiserbund as relatively balanced in Europe, while the effective absence of other powers leads the British and French to agree to divide Africa between them (Napoleon IV's Anglophilia helps this, says he becomes mates with Edward VII?). Also fears of Russia see them team up in Turkey and over Japan in Manchuria.
A stronger France also keeps an equal footing in Suez, meaning any invasion in the 1880s is a joint venture, keeping Egypt less of a British colony and at worst a condominium. So no cold war but more a friendly rivalry in colonial affairs, the British confident in their naval supremacy, and the French more concerned with the continent and practising the Jeune Ecole, happy to avoid a ship-for-ship arms race.
However I believe such a set up, based on denying German nationalism and maintaining the Austrian Empire (possibly without the 1867 Compromise so even worse), has a very particular time frame.
Being uber-optimistic, lets say excellent French diplomacy has produced a very loose London-Paris-Vienna-Constantinople-Tokyo entente around Russia and her dwarven barrack friend, Prussia which has become a very peculiar place sitting on her Polish subjects, clamping down on art that isn't deemed masculine and Prussian and basically being rather beefy and dull. I imagine it being caricatured as a sort of Wagnerian North Korea by the Parisian press. Actually that seems exactly the sort of state Wilhelm II was born to rule. I imagine a lot of massive phallic monuments to the Teutons and such, plus probably a tower in Berlin slightly bigger than the Eiffel. A monolithic super-battleship moored off the Pommeranian coast, completely unfit for ocean travel but certainly BIGGEST!
I think it could be fun to write something set in this inferiority complex riddled Prussia, I keep that in mind...
So yeah, France keeps all her plates spinning, maintains a huge empire, first amongst equals in Europe and Prussia is a freak show. Plus population decline has been halted and politics is basically stable. I believe it will all end in a replay of 1848, only this time with socialists thrown in, ending with a republican Grossdeutschland and the Second Empire collapsing at a time when Marxism and fascism could be possible heirs.
But up til 1920-30-ish? A lovely time for France.
Attention returned to Europe, Napoleon and Franz Joseph team up in 1866, the best possible time for stomping Prussia in terms of it being deemed a legitimate threat, having enough German states arranged against it and not being too powerful vis her continental rivals.
Let the Austrians do better in Bohemia, combined with the French marching through the Rhineland, aiding the likes of Hanover. Bismarck is sent packing and Wilhelm begs for peace.
West-Prussia becomes the Kingdom of Rhineland, perhaps under Maximilian (his connections to France might make him palatable for Paris, Vienna and the Germans)? Hanover gets some nibbles, France buys Luxembourg, and Austria gets Silesia.
All the German states (possibly sans Prussia) form a new loose Confederation which is effectively Rhineland, Hanover and Bavaria under Austrian protection maintaining a divided Germany in dynastic self-interest.
Napoleon III dies mid-1870s, Napoleon IV marries an Austrian princess and liberalises the government to a Prussian level, allowing semi-constitutional rule. Bring in a 'Universal France' immigration policy, which sees European immigration into France rise, combined with some (to our eyes sinister) natalist programmes the metropole has a few million more citizens by the 1920s. France gets a hand in the Rhineland tiller, aiding their domestic industry.
No Germany, France ends up running places like Togo and Cameroon. I imagine Russia cosies up to Prussia after 1866. All in all this leads to France maintaining 'favoured nation' status with Japan which leads to Paris and Tokyo working together in Korea, Formosa and Yunnan, leading to greater French involvement in China.
They avoid a costly war due to Britain being moderately friendly - they see the Austro-French Alliance and Zweikaiserbund as relatively balanced in Europe, while the effective absence of other powers leads the British and French to agree to divide Africa between them (Napoleon IV's Anglophilia helps this, says he becomes mates with Edward VII?). Also fears of Russia see them team up in Turkey and over Japan in Manchuria.
A stronger France also keeps an equal footing in Suez, meaning any invasion in the 1880s is a joint venture, keeping Egypt less of a British colony and at worst a condominium. So no cold war but more a friendly rivalry in colonial affairs, the British confident in their naval supremacy, and the French more concerned with the continent and practising the Jeune Ecole, happy to avoid a ship-for-ship arms race.
However I believe such a set up, based on denying German nationalism and maintaining the Austrian Empire (possibly without the 1867 Compromise so even worse), has a very particular time frame.
Being uber-optimistic, lets say excellent French diplomacy has produced a very loose London-Paris-Vienna-Constantinople-Tokyo entente around Russia and her dwarven barrack friend, Prussia which has become a very peculiar place sitting on her Polish subjects, clamping down on art that isn't deemed masculine and Prussian and basically being rather beefy and dull. I imagine it being caricatured as a sort of Wagnerian North Korea by the Parisian press. Actually that seems exactly the sort of state Wilhelm II was born to rule. I imagine a lot of massive phallic monuments to the Teutons and such, plus probably a tower in Berlin slightly bigger than the Eiffel. A monolithic super-battleship moored off the Pommeranian coast, completely unfit for ocean travel but certainly BIGGEST!
I think it could be fun to write something set in this inferiority complex riddled Prussia, I keep that in mind...
So yeah, France keeps all her plates spinning, maintains a huge empire, first amongst equals in Europe and Prussia is a freak show. Plus population decline has been halted and politics is basically stable. I believe it will all end in a replay of 1848, only this time with socialists thrown in, ending with a republican Grossdeutschland and the Second Empire collapsing at a time when Marxism and fascism could be possible heirs.
But up til 1920-30-ish? A lovely time for France.
The problem with stomping Prussia is that people are going to respond to that - having France acting in a way so as to dominate the continent (and it wouldn't be too hard for an expansionist France to be seen that way) is not going to rally support from Russia and Britain.
And that's going to come home to roost considerably earlier than the 20s.
And that's going to come home to roost considerably earlier than the 20s.
Well I don't see Russia being chums with France here and I expect Anglo-French relations to be at the worst circa 1870 before Napoleon IV can patch things up.
Also Prussia here is reduced in stature to the Rhineland, Hanover and Bavaria, leaving Germany were several moderately equal states, aligning with Austria and France but not puppets. It only Prussia going loopy in its defeat that really alienates Berlin from London.
Plus this is a wank and about as believable a wank as France can manage IMO, so allow me a little leeway in terms of British opinion.
wolf_brother
Banned
I'm not so sure about that. Oh, for sure, a certain segment of the British chattering classes will be up in arms over a Bonaparte smashing through the German states, but that had started back in 1848 and wasn't going to change anytime soon. You have to remember that quite a few leading British thinkers and doers supported the Second Empire; hell even Queen Victoria was a staunch Bonapartist. Besides which it's not like Paris is actually conquering territory across the Rhine (minus of course the aforementioned purchase of Luxembourg). I expect there'll be a new round of Francophobia (or, rather more appropriately, Bonapartophonia) and some real diehards will go marching up and down the square claiming they're 'preparing for the 'inevitable French invasion,' but really Britain has nothing more to fear from a Paris that remains the continental hegemon in '66 than she had to fear from a Berlin that became one in '71.
Now Russia on the other hand I'll grant you, and Prussian rache allied with Russia's industrial scope and manpower pool would be nothing to sneeze at.
The Kingdom of Saxony protests against being ignored and neglected in favor of Hanover.
You mean because France demands and encourages it.
After 1848, the notion that the German Confederation should remain as weak as it was increasingly challenged even amongst the ruling elites of (major) German states.
Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
If this lasts long enough, then German nationalism might be replaced by Hannoverian, Prussian, and Rhinelandian nationalism.
They need to have intercourse for the purposes of having offspring... -.-
- Status