what would an independent Quebec be like today?

Valamyr

Banned
1774 happened only to try to secure Canada, to have a northern base for the upcoming struggle with the american colonies. It also helped ease unrest in a region with a different culture and religion than the rest of the empire.

Ultimately, though, to french-canadians, it was a meaningless piece of paper. Its simple demographics that ensured Quebec survival. Its population was the most fertile of NA up to 1960, when religion - and birth levels - declined abrutely.

Today, only the fact that immigrants integrate very well into Quebec's open society - and increasingly support independentism - ensure the long term survival of the entity.

As for priviledges awarded to Quebec - yes, there are certainly periodic attempts by federal administrations to give political favors to curry favor in Quebec, but just like in 1774, the people of Quebec doesnt give a shit. We tend to increasingly see that it would be both economically and culturally wiser to stand on our own; no matter how many "favors" Canada throw our way, it cannot make up for what we give up in return.

So perhaps it would be wise to downgrade the hate rethoric a notch and just let it happen, see who's right? It wont affect your lives, say, Straha for exemple. I cant remember your background, but no matter where you live, you have nothing to lose really. Its just time for us to enjoy our full responsabilities - and rights - as a nation. I dont have anything against canadians either, but its also time they move to take care of their own internal affairs, as well. Doesnt exclude good relations and potential parternerships either, but that must occur between equal nations, like in Europe.
 
Now, now, let's not forget we live in a big and dangerous world.

Why, keeping Dave Howery in line is a challenge now, imagine how he would twitch if Quebec separated?
 
A few questions:

Since Quebec gets more than it gives in terms of the exchequer, are we talking cuts in government programs or a crushing tax burden?

When dairy, lumber, and other Quebec industries dependent on government aid go belly up, what happens?

When Canada decides to veto Quebec's entry into NAFTA, what happens?

And when Canada uses the magic word 'UNGAVA', and notes that this area was Canadian long before it was divided between Ontario and Quebec...
 
Valamyr said:
1774 happened only to try to secure Canada, to have a northern base for the upcoming struggle with the american colonies. It also helped ease unrest in a region with a different culture and religion than the rest of the empire.

Ultimately, though, to french-canadians, it was a meaningless piece of paper. Its simple demographics that ensured Quebec survival. Its population was the most fertile of NA up to 1960, when religion - and birth levels - declined abrutely.

Today, only the fact that immigrants integrate very well into Quebec's open society - and increasingly support independentism - ensure the long term survival of the entity.

As for priviledges awarded to Quebec - yes, there are certainly periodic attempts by federal administrations to give political favors to curry favor in Quebec, but just like in 1774, the people of Quebec doesnt give a shit. We tend to increasingly see that it would be both economically and culturally wiser to stand on our own; no matter how many "favors" Canada throw our way, it cannot make up for what we give up in return.

So perhaps it would be wise to downgrade the hate rethoric a notch and just let it happen, see who's right? It wont affect your lives, say, Straha for exemple. I cant remember your background, but no matter where you live, you have nothing to lose really. Its just time for us to enjoy our full responsabilities - and rights - as a nation. I dont have anything against canadians either, but its also time they move to take care of their own internal affairs, as well. Doesnt exclude good relations and potential parternerships either, but that must occur between equal nations, like in Europe.
The Quebec Act did discourage Anglophone settlers from moving into Quebec though, whiich irritated the colonists who had fought the war that Quebec for the British Empire.
 
Grimm Reaper said:
And when Canada uses the magic word 'UNGAVA', and notes that this area was Canadian long before it was divided between Ontario and Quebec...
Where do you get this? It was part of the Hudson's Bay Company before it was divided... And sinceit's part of the Province of Quebec now, I think that Canada would really have no right in trying to take it back, and wouldn't try.
 

Valamyr

Banned
A few questions:

Since Quebec gets more than it gives in terms of the exchequer, are we talking cuts in government programs or a crushing tax burden?

We believe the opposite, actually. Our data shows that we are paying over 5 billion more yearly to ottawa than we get in return. Independence will allow us to both ease tax burden and fund social programs. We will have only need for negligible defense spending. You may disagree; i suggest we both wait and see what happens in a few years :)

When dairy, lumber, and other Quebec industries dependent on government aid go belly up, what happens?

This data is no longer accurate, though it was 25 years ago. Obviously, even if it was, Quebec's aid could easily take over, as we would enjoy new financial surplus, which would also offset our share of the federal debt.

When Canada decides to veto Quebec's entry into NAFTA, what happens?

It would undoubtly be a negociated point. If it happened not to be, Canada would suffer as well, so it would be a temporary sitaution. Obviously, any fluctuation in bilateral trade affects both parties, hence the word bilateral.

And when Canada uses the magic word 'UNGAVA', and notes that this area was Canadian long before it was divided between Ontario and Quebec...


Another fantasy of yours, if i recall correctly. The canadian federation is a union of 10 province-members with predefinite and inviolable boundaries. How they historically came to be is irrelevant, otherwise Quebec might get to claim 80% of North american soil. The union of the 10 provinces defines Canada's borders; in no way is it the other way around. Should this union break in any form, it is those preregconized borders that would have legal standing according to the international community. Any hope that Canada may have to alter these borders unilaterally would result in an illegal occupation, similar to the situation in Palestine. We all know how well that works.

Obviously, since ALL the people living within the borders have an equal voice, any successful referendum would mean the majority of ALL the people living within these borders would have chosen that path democratically. If a different option had more voice in a given sector, well, the rules of the game are clear: Quebec didnt get to say in 95: "OK, keep Estrie, this way we have 55% instead of 49%, so we get our country anyway". In the same fashion, Canada wont get to say "Uhm, okay, this time you got 55%, but we get to keep those parts here and here because they voted below the threshold..."

Thank you for your worries, but I believe in a peaceful (probably largely negociated) transition, and a large economical success (after an initially tougher period, during which issues such as NAFTA membership and currency are being solved, sure).

Assuming I am wrong and it instead degenerates into civil war and a crippled third world economy, I'll make sure to come offer my apologies if i can still afford broadband. ;) But such an outcome would have dire impacts on english canadian economy as well, and to a much lesser extent, US economy, so im hoping for all our sakes it doesnt get to that.

Edit: An interesting factoid; the people who actually live in Ungava, largely natives, you know, those who's voice would need to be heard on the issue, largely support the independence option since the 1997's "Paix des braves" signed with Quebec that gave them generous autonomy on their territories. They would not be sympathic nowadays to any attempt to seperate them from Quebec. That rather painful treaty was a strategic move which is sure to pay off nicely.
 
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arlindi193

Banned
i think Canada Will Collapse and Annex by United States become 60 States and Also Stephen Harper will become President of the Unites States from 2009
 
Hmmm, intresting. Let me get this right.

In the late 20th century, there were 2 referendums. One in 1980, and one in 1995.

The 1980 vote saw the No campaign winning by 19.12%
The 1995 vote was different. The No campaign only won by 1.16%

My opinion is that had Quebec wanted independece, it would have been from the 1995 vote and not the 1980 vote. But the French side of Canada would crumble afterwards. The English side would be strong and be mantained.

I would think the French side would later become part of Quebec.
 
Ah--I had a sneaking suspicion that you were a Pat Buchanan fan--now I know for sure. :rolleyes:

If that was satire, you need new jokes ('Soviet Canuckistan' is sooooo 2002). If it wasn't, then there really isn't any point in discussing this matter with you anymore as you obviously already made up your mind and this will be just a soapbox for your politics rather than an actual discussion/debate.

Yes, my joke was rather too dated by then. After all, Canada was already approaching by 2005 the age of Stephen Harper. That said, while Canada is a terrific country hat has chieved great things while being a stronger partner to the U.S. than the U.S. has been to it, the very essence of Canadian nationhood rested on the status and fate of what had been the original, far larger (in the South at least) Province of Quebec. Feel free to correct me on this point of I got something wrong.

Of course, Quebec in 1995 had it current borders and, if it had seceded following the 1995 referendum, would have kept those borders. The more I think on this question nonetheless, the more I am convinced that an independent Quebec would be in some sort of customs union or similar arrangement with Canada, so to stave off potential economic challenges in the near term.

Nonetheless, without Quebec, I think it's clear now that Canada would be rather more conservative a country, given how much the recent electoral successes of the NDP were driven by gains made in that province.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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i think Canada Will Collapse and Annex by United States become 60 States and Also Stephen Harper will become President of the Unites States from 2009

Six and a half YEARS?

For this silly statement?

NEVER resurrect a long dead thread for this sort of uselessness again.
 
Six and a half YEARS?

For this silly statement?

NEVER resurrect a long dead thread for this sort of uselessness again.

To be fair, he opened up an interesting question- considering how comparitively recent the referendum is (was?), 2005 and 2012 might as well be a million years apart when talking about an independent Quebec's development.
 
canadian ausgleich

I think the closest parallel would be the Ausgleich of 1867. As Quebec has anglophone minorities, Hungary had Germanophone minorities in Transylvania. As Croatia was an autonomous region within Hungary, the Innuit region in the north could be an autonomous region within Quebec. If the Maritimes would be cut off from the rest of Canada, parts of Dalmatia had no land connection with the rest of Austria, and Bukovina was connected to the rest of Austria only by a long circuitious route. I believe that Hungary had its own post office and fielded its own teams in the Olympics. Quebec could do the same. As Hungary was in a customs union with Austria, Quebec would be in a customs union with Canada.
As the only ethnic cleansing in Transleithania took place long after Austria- Hungary broke apart, I don't see any ethnic cleansing in Canada-Quebec. As Austria-Hungary existed for fifty years and was broken apart only after the great war, Canada-Quebec could exisat for fifty prosperous years, especially with no major conflict on the horizon.
 
Six and a half YEARS?

For this silly statement?

NEVER resurrect a long dead thread for this sort of uselessness again.

CalBear, currently being upset on how quick the time are passing, and passably pissed to see that while he's mod, he don't advance being more young since the first years of the board. :D
 
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