What would an anarchist spain look like?
With ASB preventing German/British/American Invasion, probably pretty cool.
Not a utopia, not wealthy but by the standards of the time one of the nicer places to live.
This is what The Spanish Anarchists thought it would look like:
libcom.org
Not a utopia, not wealthy but by the standards of the time one of the nicer places to live.
This is what The Spanish Anarchists thought it would look like:
After the Revolution: Economic Reconstruction in Spain - Diego Abad de Santillán
A practical proposal for implementing anarchosyndicalism in Spain in 1936.
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You really think it is asb? Even though they are distracted by Hitler
With ASB preventing German/British/American Invasion, probably pretty cool.
Not a utopia, not wealthy but by the standards of the time one of the nicer places to live.
This is what The Spanish Anarchists thought it would look like:
After the Revolution: Economic Reconstruction in Spain - Diego Abad de Santillán
A practical proposal for implementing anarchosyndicalism in Spain in 1936.
1. Hitler would almost certainly invade himself
2. Even if for some reason he doesn't, Anarchist Spain will get hit by the US/UK as one of their first cold war targets; Greece style
Its survival in the post war world, depending on most things going similar to OTL*, would depend on a friendly/neutral French government coming to power. They need trade and a safe border with the rest of Europe.
So long as it doesn't become economically isolated/under siege, I think an Anarchist Spain would be an alright place. Politically messy, of course, but not disorderly.
The thing I would fear most in such a scenario is that some series of events taking place that puts a bigger target on their backs than what they'd already have just for being a red society on the Atlantic.
*Which is a tall ask as another successful western socialist revolution would likely cause a stir in international politics. The idea that the Cold War would work in the same ways or involve the same dynamics is dubious. That's a big butterfly.
So long as it doesn't become economically isolated/under siege, I think an Anarchist Spain would be an alright place. Politically messy, of course, but not disorderly.
The thing I would fear most in such a scenario is that some series of events taking place that puts a bigger target on their backs than what they'd already have just for being a red society on the Atlantic.
*Which is a tall ask as another successful western socialist revolution would likely cause a stir in international politics. The idea that the Cold War would work in the same ways or involve the same dynamics is dubious. That's a big butterfly.
To begin with, the main question is how the Anarchists managed to become the main faction among the Republicans.
Anyway, let's suppose that they grew until that point and become the rulers of Spain after defeating Franco.
The, i wonder how they would adapt to the Democracy system and what would they have time to do before Hitler crushes France in 1940 and goes south the Pyrenees after the Battle of Britain.
Anyway, let's suppose that they grew until that point and become the rulers of Spain after defeating Franco.
The, i wonder how they would adapt to the Democracy system and what would they have time to do before Hitler crushes France in 1940 and goes south the Pyrenees after the Battle of Britain.
Syndicalist
Think Kaiserreich France but with Spain
If you want a real country as a reference use Socialist Yugoslavia's economics, Tito would make larger enterprises worker-owned while leaving small businesses alone
It would suffer from the after-effects of the civil war and the production would tank for a bit like what happened with the areas controlled by the anarchists OTL and Yugoslavia initially after the nationalisations, however it should recover eventually if it is left alone
Salaries would be much higher, something common for self-management industries, so that's nice
Enployment as well since syndicates would be pretty much handing places in the industry to worker-candidates hoping to expand it
Expect a anticlerical pogroms at the start of the regime revolutionary France-style, the anarchists werent very nice with churches, though it should also die off under the pressure of all their christian powers surrounding it
For the government itself it would be a democracy, gasp! But yeah a syndie-directed one, after a while it should estabilize and become one of the most liberal countries in Europe probably on par with the nordics on that, expect some corruption though with nepotism and bribery within syndicates and the industry, very Italy-ey on that
Think Kaiserreich France but with Spain
If you want a real country as a reference use Socialist Yugoslavia's economics, Tito would make larger enterprises worker-owned while leaving small businesses alone
It would suffer from the after-effects of the civil war and the production would tank for a bit like what happened with the areas controlled by the anarchists OTL and Yugoslavia initially after the nationalisations, however it should recover eventually if it is left alone
Salaries would be much higher, something common for self-management industries, so that's nice
Enployment as well since syndicates would be pretty much handing places in the industry to worker-candidates hoping to expand it
Expect a anticlerical pogroms at the start of the regime revolutionary France-style, the anarchists werent very nice with churches, though it should also die off under the pressure of all their christian powers surrounding it
For the government itself it would be a democracy, gasp! But yeah a syndie-directed one, after a while it should estabilize and become one of the most liberal countries in Europe probably on par with the nordics on that, expect some corruption though with nepotism and bribery within syndicates and the industry, very Italy-ey on that
Deleted member 169412
Spain either dials down its anti-Catholicism or becomes North Korea on the Iberian Peninsula.
Estado Novo Portugal is definitely not going to play nice with a government that thinks burning down churches, killing priests and raping nuns is morally okay, and I don't know how much of a political force the Catholic Church was in 30's France (given laicité and all that) but I don't think French Catholics would be fine with that. Spain either has to persuade the anarchist militias not to do stuff like that, or come up with an economic policy along the lines of Juche, which seems pretty darn hard to do given that Spain was a net importer of food.
Estado Novo Portugal is definitely not going to play nice with a government that thinks burning down churches, killing priests and raping nuns is morally okay, and I don't know how much of a political force the Catholic Church was in 30's France (given laicité and all that) but I don't think French Catholics would be fine with that. Spain either has to persuade the anarchist militias not to do stuff like that, or come up with an economic policy along the lines of Juche, which seems pretty darn hard to do given that Spain was a net importer of food.
My immediate thought to reading the first point was “It sure would be awkward if a Spanish government-in-exile showed up in London” before remembering that we’re talking about anarchists. They’d have no government!
As for a Hitlerite invasion, it could easily spell a much quicker end to the Nazis. Not necessarily because of the Spanish Ulcer 2: Anti-Clericalism Boogaloo, the Spanish would likely be far too tired for that and Germany would find plenty of Nationalists to create a new government, but because the Allies wouldn’t be. If the Axis occupy all of Spain but not Portugal, they’re going to have to leave a decent sized army to ensure the British don’t build up there before officially activating their alliance (plausibility aside, this seems exactly like a hair-brained scheme that someone would try to pull in WWII) and if they do that’s an entire other country to occupy. Even if an invasion of Iberia is unlikely, that’s hundreds of extra kilometers of coast that have to be covered and hundreds of square kilometers that need to be garrisoned. Coupled with inevitable losses to the tank corps while campaigning, the Germans could be looking at a severely attrited Wehrmacht going into Barbarossa.
But I’m not entirely sure Hitler would invade. He wasn’t stupid, and what I laid out would certainly be on his mind. He could very well decide the Anarchists are a problem for later when the war is won, a later that never actually arrives. At that point I think it heavily depends on Spain’s actions during the war on if the Allies begrudgingly leave it be or actively work to overthrow it. If they were mainly cooperative and even threw in behind the Allies and/or show (not pro-German) hostility to the Soviets, probably a bit of leeway. Constantly causing headaches by threatening Gibraltar or Portugal, harboring dissidents, constantly denouncing the Allies, etc, probably post-war shenanigans that would looks remarkably similar to the Contras.
Hitler was definitely stupid.
His generals advised sending troops through spain to take Gibraltar. Franco wouldnt allow it (Hitler and Franco negotiated on this). Generals said do it anyway, Franco will blink and pretend it never happened. Hitler said no because: honour.
With an Axis Spain, of course you take Portugal too (and the Heer did make plans for this) the Pyrenees are defensible - no need for significant German presence south of them. Spanish Nationalists (Portugal annexed to Spain was something Franco wanted) will do.
This is what Goering said he wanted to do at Nuremburg:
Goering: The Mediterranean Strategy
The War Crimes testimony of Hermann Goering, illustrated, linked, and catagorized for easy reference.
gooring.tripod.com
Which would have been better for the Axis prosecution of the war (and worse for humanity) than what they actually did.
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This is a myth about what anarchism actually is/was. The Spanish Anarchists had ministers in the Republican government
Juan García Oliver - Wikipedia
Anarchists didnt use consensus process until the 1970's
Consensus Process was absolutely deplored by traditional anarchists and is one of the reasons anarchism is now irrelevant (whereas in the 30's it meant something).
No, he was a man who took gambles and often believed his own propaganda. That doesn’t make him stupid, an idiot would not have managed to rise up the ranks to dictator of Germany.
And it would still be Hitler’s final call to push south of the Pyrenees. Hitler could very well consider the entire operation something to be taken care of post-war because there is a huge difference between moving through friendly territory and invading Iberia en route to Gibraltar. The former would allow for a surprise attack, the latter would give the British plenty of time to buff up the Rock, which is a place where Panzers aren’t very useful and the full might of the Royal Navy can be utilized as artillery support.
Then why invade in the first place? Relying on a hastily rebuilt Nationalist force is akin to expecting Vichy to hold off an Allied invasion. It would literally make Germany’s strategic situation much worse without any perceived military benefits. There’s a reason Hitler didn’t invade the Swiss despite despising them, he didn’t attack everybody and anybody in reach for shits and giggles.
Like I said, there’s a massive difference between moving through a friendly Spain and invading it. That plan also assumes that the Axis could win in Egypt, which OTL showed the odds were against them there. Even if for some reason they invade Spain then pull north of the Pyrenees, that’s still giving the Allies a massive foothold on the Continent when the Nationalists are inevitably swept away. When Torch roles around, the Allies retake Gibraltar and open up a front in Iberia, a front that Germany cannot ignore unless they want to invest so many resources into France that it makes OTL look like a string shoe budget.
Then pray tell what is it? There wouldn’t really be a government in a CNF-FAI victory due to anarchism emphasizing local rule and cooperation over a top-down enforcement of rules. At most there would be a mediation force that would help coordinate the communes in wartime and maybe enforce laws, but hardly something we would consider a government. Anarchism is a very different beast than more traditional forms of socialism.This is a myth about what anarchism actually is/was. The Spanish Anarchists had ministers in the Republican government
Juan García Oliver - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
He was a man who hired a quack doctor who injected him with amphetamines on a near daily basis. Who couldn't even bring himself to treat Mussolini, Franco or The Japanese with respect. Who didn't take the medeteranian when he could have. Who declared war on America when he had no means of actually making war on America and doomed himself to an American invasion for no reason. Who had a pathological need to feel like he was always attacking no matter what the strategic situation demanded. Who kept taking control of the eastern war away from his generals and directing personally always with disaster results. Who didnt sue for terms when the writing was on the wall. I could go on and on.
Inside the Drug Use That Fueled Nazi Germany | HISTORY
An explosive bestseller mined the records of Adolf Hitler’s personal doctor, among other sources, to uncover details of the long-rumored drug use by many in the Nazi regime.
www.history.com
'plenty of time' is less than a month if you send Rommel's Ghost Division and they move like they did in France (they would move faster because their opponents would be far worse equipped). Also, the RN is kinda busy deterring Sea Mammal and defending countless other objectives. Obviously you combine an attack on Gibraltar with one on Malta etc. They can't be everywhere.
Hitler saw anarchism as something run by Jews. If spain was controlled by anarchists he would have made the call.
To base the Luftwaffe, U boats and Itallian battleships at Gibraltar - which you turn into an absolute fortress. Meaning the allies can't move anything in or out of the medeteranian.
Once/If the US enters the war things are different. But the UK only has so many forces. The UK invades Spain to retake Gibraltar - they have committed enough forces that they can't invade France (only so many forces to go round) your forces in France go south and the UK, operating in hostile territory, hit from behind, loses.
They couldnt take Egypt because they couldn't effectively supply/reinforce their forces. This because the Allies held Gibraltar/Malta and so controlled the Med and it was very difficult to send the Afrika Korps anything. Take Gibraltar/Malta and all that changes.
If hitler wasnt an idiot, he would have told The Japanese they were on their own after Pearl Harbour and maybe it wouldnt have.
A planned economy run democratically. The CNT was a bureaucratic organisation with 2 million members which worked effectively. The plan was to amalgamate every business in each industry into a single organisation which was to coordinate closely and be run democratically in harness. You are looking at increased centralisation. Very democratic but also very centralised. Basically the trade union would become the (directly democratic) government - even if they called themselves something else.
Modern anarchists talk about this 'local' bullshit so they can claim how small their organisations are and how far they have fallen as a virtue. Traditional anarchism was a very different beast.
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